Chrysanthemum and water openwork. Opinions?

[Blueduck600]

Hey folks.

I'm looking at this tsuba at auction and I'm tring to get more info on it.

 

First, is it genuine? The workmanship looks good but the color is odd, might just be the lighting? The other pieces by the seller look genuine.

 

When was it made and what is the school? I've never seen this style before. Looks sort of french nouveau, which I like.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Adam!

Wow, what an interesting and beautiful tsuba!

My opinion is that it looks genuine and it seems to be thicker in the middle then on the rim.

The motif is placed inside a sea cucumber type of tsuba design.

Looks to have been mounted on a tang at least once.

That is all I can tell you, other members will probably give you much more detail about the tsuba.

[Blueduck600]

Yeah, whether or not it was mounted before is tricky because it seems like some from the meiji era were made to look that way. Not real clear on that.

Edited June 22 by Blueduck600
Spelling

[Dan tsuba]

Hi again Adam.

I don't know.  I don't think it is meiji era.  But it is all just a guess.

The tsuba looks intricately made by a very talented tsuba craftsman.

The sekigane (copper filler in the tang slot) looks authentic.

I all I can tell you is I think it is authentic, more than likely Edo, and I would like to have it in my collection!

 

[GreyVR]

Just now, Dan tsuba said:

Hi again Adam.

I don't know.  I don't think it is meiji era.  But it is all just a guess.

The tsuba looks intricately made by a very talented tsuba craftsman.

 

Why not Meiji or later? It's true the samurai class was gone, but I've heard that a lot of interesting items were made post-Perry, as artistic inspiration was coming in from all over the world. Warrior caste demand would be down due to the political changes, but even so?

Is that wrong?

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi George.

Like I stated before, it is all just a guess whether it is Meiji or Edo.

I refer the question to more knowledgeable individuals than I am.

Let us wait what others think and say.

[GreyVR]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi George.

Like I stated before, it is all just a guess whether it is Meiji or Edo.

 

That's completely fair, (just trying to learn to tell between them myself,) so I'll also early see wait for the next comment. 

[Curran]

Looks legit, and decent.

I would say it is more the photography, -that is just my opinion, but I've been looking at crappy photos for a very long time.

 

Chrysanthemums (or Sakura) on Water.

Very old and appreciated Life n Death allegory.

[Bugyotsuji]

Chrysanthemum and flowing water is the Classical Chinese (Kiki Jido in Japanese) story, treated reverentially in Japan as the epitome of loyalty.

 

How could they hammer the metal inwards towards the Nakago ana without spreading it out and warp the delicate sukashi?

[Spartancrest]

7 hours ago, Blueduck600 said:

Looks sort of french nouveau,

You might be looking at the style the wrong way around - French Art Nouveau took its inspiration from contact with the Japanese. French Art Nouveau was profoundly influenced by Japanese art and design. This cross-cultural exchange—often referred to as Japonisme—sparked a revolution in European visual culture following the opening of Japanese trade in the mid-19th century.

Art Nouveau artists broke away from rigid European traditions of perfect symmetry, favoring dynamic, off-center framing and diagonals inspired by Japanese masters.

So I guess why it looks Art Nouveau is because the Japanese invented it! Perhaps the style should be called "Art Nihon"?

[Hokke]

14 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Chrysanthemum and flowing water is the Classical Chinese (Kiki Jido in Japanese) story, treated reverentially in Japan as the epitome of loyalty.

 

How could they hammer the metal inwards towards the Nakago ana without spreading it out and warp the delicate sukashi?

I have a set of F/K with the kikujido motif which I purchased specifically because of that story. 

 

"Kikujido" has been a favorable theme since ancient times as a symbol of wishing for longevity. A beautiful child who drank water dripping from the chrysanthemum leaves that wrote the sentence and became an immortal hermit. It is said that the water flowed into the river, cured the diseases of neighboring villagers and benefited them with longevity. Recently, it has not been seen much, but the "Chuyo no Sekku" on September 9, where you wipe your body with chrysanthemum cotton and drink chrysanthemum sake to pray for good health, was once an important annual event.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for that, Calabrese! Interesting how many different ways the story was expanded.

 

The Kikusui (chrysanthemum + waters) crest certainly took on a life of its own in Bushi circles, becoming one of the most famous Kamon, especially for the Lord Kusunoki who is revered in Kobe’s Minatogawa Jinja.

 

Here is a netsuke of the kikujido.

And

[Hokke]

4 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Thanks for that, Calabrese! Interesting how many different ways the story was expanded.

 

The Kikusui (chrysanthemum + waters) crest certainly took on a life of its own becoming one of the most famous Kamon, especially for the Lord Kusunoki who is revered in Kobe’s Minatogawa Jinja.

Indeed...... and for those wondering about the Kamon Piers was referring to:

 

 

 

[Hokke]

From my F/K Piers.....the likeness is very similar to your netsuke....

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Sadly he may have left now, something I could have said in anger? Did I banish him, to go and weep by the side of the creek? 
Fond memories indeed!

But he lives on forever in one’s memories…

[Bugyotsuji]

In for a penny, in for a pound. I am liking Blueduck’s unusual find. Here is another tsuba for reference.

 

[Hokke]

3 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Sadly he may have left now, something I may have said? Did I banish him to go and weep by the side of the creek? 
Fond memories indeed!

Is that how the story is invoked contemporarily? I love how things trickle down through the ages

[Bugyotsuji]

Just now, Hokke said:

Is that how the story is invoked contemporarily? I love how things trickle down through the ages

Apparently the King banished him in a rage but he was ever faithful, spending his years brush-writing tear-filled filial poems on chrysanthemum leaves and floating them down the stream.

[Blueduck600]

9 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

You might be looking at the style the wrong way around - French Art Nouveau took its inspiration from contact with the Japanese. French Art Nouveau was profoundly influenced by Japanese art and design. This cross-cultural exchange—often referred to as Japonisme—sparked a revolution in European visual culture following the opening of Japanese trade in the mid-19th century.

Art Nouveau artists broke away from rigid European traditions of perfect symmetry, favoring dynamic, off-center framing and diagonals inspired by Japanese masters.

So I guess why it looks Art Nouveau is because the Japanese invented it! Perhaps the style should be called "Art Nihon"?

I appreciate that comment.

I wasn't thinking that French nouveau influenced the samurai because it obviously came after, but I hadn't considered the other way around or how Japanese aesthetic affected the art world in general. I'll have to look into that.

Let me know if you have any reading or youtube to recommend.

[Blueduck600]

I appreciate the help, folks.

And the insight to the art side of it.

 

I did buy the piece, and now I just have to wait, and of course figure out how to manage the tariffs. I haven't bought anything since all that started.

Edited June 22 by Blueduck600
Correcting auto correct

[GreyVR]

9 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

In for a penny, in for a pound.

If you are putting in a penny and a pound, you should throw in a peony, considering the context. 😉

(Perhaps a poor pun, perhaps a perfect pun.)

 

[GreyVR]

42 minutes ago, Blueduck600 said:

but I hadn't considered the other way around or how Japanese aesthetic affected the art world in general. I'll have to look into that.

Japan's unique art has influenced European art for hundreds of years. Even when closed, some small amount was flowing out through the Dutch. Likewise, some was flowing in. Japanese designs influenced by European designs are called "Nanban" for "southern barbarian." Nanban Tsuba exist in large numbers, but the word (almost always I believe) with fittings means "influence" and not to actual importation whereas with armor Nanban armor is actually European armor imported, stylized, and used in battle.

Also, European cloth was the most valuable cloth in Japan. Learning this was a fascinating moment, because as a child I read most of James Clavell's Shogun. (I ran out of steam in somewhere in the 700s by page count.) In this work, Clavell was said to be "Honest but inauthentic" in that his ideas of Japan at this time were 'correct by the standards of the studies of the period he was writing in, as they were based on often incorrect ideas held in academia, but were indeed held at the highest levels in academia. (So when he was wrong, it was because the research when he was writing was wrong.) 

One of these wrong ideas is how Blackthorne has a large volume of European cloth as trade goods, but the Japanese despise it and want only silk (and make quite a commotion about how awful they think it is....) while in reality European wool cloth was highly valued for strength, heat retention, and colors available. It was the most expensive cloth in Japan. These are Hideyoshi's personal private time bedroom slippers. They are made from European wool. It was called "rasha." Hideyoshi was a real piece of work, but in his old age he was subject to being cold, and being the most powerful man at the time was able to afford bedclothes and slippers and such made from European wool. These slippers are thought to be private (partly) because they aren't decorated enough to be used in important meetings. 

They also made battle surcoats for wearing over armor (the long sleeveless jackets) out of it. Because it was strong enough and also as a bit of a wealth flex, and as a way to add a layer to your look. 





As to influence outside Japan, Rembrandt the famous painter is known to have collected Samurai swords and he died in 1669. (This comes up a great deal when educating people who still think that Samurai swords were 'better in every way, instead of just very solid and extremely beautiful blades. It comes up because no one in European military affairs felt the need to change their swords out for Japanese ones as a functional issue but valued them tremendously as art objects.) 

But, I am rambling about the older period artistic influences.... On the topic of late artistic transmission.... post-Perry, the Japanese are reported to have used printed art (ukiyo-e) AS PACKING MATERIAL ON EXPORTED GOODS!

Imagine you are a 'well to do' European, and you send off for a Japanese vase or screen, or some bit of lacquerware to show off to your friends how worldly you are... and it arrives a year later, packed in 'wadded up newspaper,' except it isn't newspaper. You glance at the paper, unroll it... and find THIS?


This is the kind of thing that inspired Mikado by Gilbert and Sullivan. 

In truth, it seems like Japan has a massive world-wide cultural takeover of the world about every 30 years. When I was a kid Ninja Turtles, Robotech, and so on were massive. 

As to art going the other way, this absolutely happened but it can be harder to identify. Japanese people were of course fascinated by the outside world, and the time Japan was closed just increased this. One of the last people to travel was Tenjiku Tekobei, and he became famous for his writings on his travels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenjiku_Tokubei I have a picture of him on my wall as a wizard riding a giant frog. (The last great traveler before Japan closed became so fascinating to the nation for his writings about the outside he became a wizard in Kabuki playwriters started using him as a wizard.) As such, when it opened again an influences started flooding in, they absolutely influenced art.... but it's a bit harder for we who are outside to track directly... and also because of the abolition of the samurai class as a power play by the Emperor, there was less need for sword fittings which are the focus of this forum. 

I recently ordered an antique tsuba which I think must have had a European influence because the bottom is classic Japanese but the top is more of a semi-modern graphic design using bars with semicircles as ends to create a classical Japanese design (the sun over clouds) in a very new and different use of line. These bars stand out to me as a 'influenced design' but it might turn out not to be. It's entirely possible this is an old Japanese style I simply haven't encountered elsewhere.

Edited June 22 by GreyVR

[Curran]

12 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Chrysanthemum and flowing water is the Classical Chinese (Kiki Jido in Japanese) story, treated reverentially in Japan as the epitome of loyalty.

 

How could they hammer the metal inwards towards the Nakago ana without spreading it out and warp the delicate sukashi?

 

Thanks Piers.

Further proof that I still have a lot to learn. 

[Bugyotsuji]

As do we all, each of us having parts of the giant jigsaw puzzle but never all of it…

[GRC]

The workmanship of the tsuba reminds me of Inshu Suruga work... I think the original kuchi-beni sekigane (lipstick style copper inserts) was knocked out from the top of the nakago-ana because you can see the sort of "horseshoe" indent that is there, which would have held the copper sekigane.