Your opinion about this kinzogan mei katana

[ville]

Hello guys.

 

This is my first post here. I'm a complete beginner and I need some help . I have a katana that I would like to know more about.

I made a Reddit post about this sword a while ago and got quite mixed opinions about it. Now I would like to hear your opinions on this katana.

I know that the kinzogan mei might be fake, but I would be interested in, for example, what era this sword could be from, and do you think this is a genuine Nihonto or a complete fake ?

 

Thank you in advance . Regards Ville M.

 

 

[Rivkin]

Jigane appears to be tight, not very distinctive itame, nioi-guchi is broad, hamon is relatively broad suguha, there is some ko nie foaming and overall forging is kind of crisp. I would vote for Edo period, Hizen or about. Hizen itself we would expect more prominent jigane, but it could be out of polish.... Other schools also have tried their hand in such style, even Yokoyama Bizen.

[Robert S]

It looks to me like that blade was shortened at some point (suriage), and possibly the kinzogan mei was carved at that time, to replace one removed in the shortening.  Which might point to something older than Edo period, although I agree with Kirill on the appearance of the jigane.

[eternal_newbie]

9 hours ago, Rivkin said:

but it could be out of polish

 

It does appear to have signs of either improper uchiko use or a dirty saya interior (long, parallel abrasions), both of which can interfere with a polish over many years.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Kinzogan is very crudely executed, suspect this is fairly recent and done for nefarious purposes. 

[ville]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far !

 

I was advised to take pictures in a dark room. Here are some new pictures, I know they are not perfect either but I hope you get something out of them .

 

 

[Shugyosha]

5 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

The Kinzogan is very crudely executed, suspect this is fairly recent and done for nefarious purposes. 

 

This. I'm not sure I can see any inlay at all: it looks like it has been painted on rather than carved and then inlaid with gold. 

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

 

This. I'm not sure I can see any inlay at all: it looks like it has been painted on rather than carved and then inlaid with gold. 

If I blow up the image I can see file marks. I think it's kinzogan Mei but very crudely carved and inlaid. Not quality work. 

[Grey Doffin]

If you take your pictures on a dark background we'll be able to see better. Grey

[ville]

Here are a few more pictures of "kinzogan mei", hope they help. i'm not a very good photographer, sorry about that .

[Lewis B]

Much clearer thanks. To me this appears to be gilded copper inlay and not pure gold as would have be traditionally applied. 

 

Could also be brass based on the shade of yellow 

[Shugyosha]

5 hours ago, Lewis B said:

If I blow up the image I can see file marks. I think it's kinzogan Mei but very crudely carved and inlaid. Not quality work. 

So, a genuine question, to which I don’t know the answer is “what amounts to a kinzogan mei”? Should it be carved like a normal mei and then inlaid or just “keyed” like nunome zogan and then painted on?

I think the former and as soon as I see the latter that arouses suspicion for me. Don’t know anything about how genuine Hon’ami
attributions are executed though. 

[Lewis B]

18 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

So, a genuine question, to which I don’t know the answer is “what amounts to a kinzogan mei”? Should it be carved like a normal mei and then inlaid or just “keyed” like nunome zogan and then painted on?

I think the former and as soon as I see the latter that arouses suspicion for me. Don’t know anything about how genuine Hon’ami
attributions are executed though. 

I agree it's the former. The technique is similar but the form of the precious metal is different. As I understand it, with kinzogan Mei the chiseled kanji are filled by hammering in gold wire then filed flat to the level of the nakago. In nunome zogan the gold, silver or copper elements are applied as thin sheets/foil using a hammer. 

[Natichu]

While not related to the kinzogan itself (though to my eye it appears done by the same person), does the sayagaki look off to anyone else? 

[reinhard]

The whole package is a fake.

Why? Study basics!

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

[Andrew]

Come on Mr Reinhard,

At least some clues to give for a first time member.YOUR comments gives nothing..

Regards

Andrew

[reinhard]

We are talking about a blade atttributed to a "Omi-no-Kami Tsuguhira....." with a nagasa (according to a dubious torokusho) of 65.1 cm and very little sori of 1.1cm.

There were smiths with this name and title working during later 17th/early 18th century. No others.

Kin-zogan (gold inlay) or Kin-pun (gold lacquer)-mei were never attached to o-suriage Shin-To and Shin-Shin-To blades.

Partly shortened blades show clear distictions between the remaining original nakago and the shortened blade section.

They are missing here. The disintegrated look of the nakago looks artificial and covers almost all of the nakago.

Anyway: Within a strange and dubious setting like this, further research doesn't make much sense.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

[ville]

Thanks to everyone who has responded :).

 

Although further research doesn't make much sense, it would still be nice to know if this is, a newer but still a Japanese made sword, that would have been faked to look old.

I bought this sword from Japan, from a Japanese auctioneer, which makes you think that there is a pretty low probability that they would sell, for example, a Chinese sword with a fake torokusho.

Wouldn't that be a pretty big crime on their part ? But I'm just guessing here, and of course i can't rule out that possibility.

 

However, let this sword be a lesson to myself to research things more before buying anything (luckily this sword wasn't very expensive).

[Brian]

Zero chance that it is Chinese, it will be a legit Nihonto, just with an altered signature, which is more than common. But the sword still stands on it's own as though it were mumei.
 

[Jacques]

Fully agreed with Reinhard