Authentification advice

[MaxT]

Hello everyone, 

 

i made a bid on a shakudo tsuba at an auction in Vienna today:

https://www.zacke.at/auction/lot/1648-a-soten-school-gempei-wars-shakudo-tsuba/?lot=95268&sd=1#

 

I thought it looked quite nice, but did not actually expect to win it. Before I make a payment however, I want to make sure the discription is accurate and it is not a cheaply made copy/ cast. The condition looks suspiciously good and The price estimate is also a bit low. 
 

any help is greatly appreciated 
 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Max.

 

I don't see a problem with your tsuba.  The auction house were optimistic likening it to lot 81 in the Goodman sale as that one is larger, signed and of better execution than yours, they would have been more truthful to compare it to this one, https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22472/lot/79/a-soten-style-tsuba-edo-period-19th-century/

Yours seems to have been mounted with consequent wear on the seppa dai but I can't see any red flags.

 

Enjoy.

 

All the best.

Edited January 24 by Geraint

[ROKUJURO]

It does not seem to have ORIGAMI which is a red flag in my eyes, specifically with SOTEN TSUBA. There is the saying that "from 100 SOTEN signed TSUBA on a table, very likely all are copies".

Depending on the price, I would look carefully and compare.  If it was cheap, then it is probably safe to assume it is a copy. If it was expensive (> € 600.--) I would ask for a certification paper.

Just my 2 YEN.

[Bugyotsuji]

Actually as it's unsigned I think the 'Soten-style' wording is better than outright 'Soten school'. Strictly speaking these were made within the *Hikone Han, the Soten being a line of smiths within that area, the earliest ones signing their work. Becoming popular, later they were apparently emulated elsewhere in Japan.

 

I have a similar one, papered by the NBTHK as 'Hikone'. 

*Think of Hikone Castle, home of the Ii Daimyo family.

[Matsunoki]

I am very suspicious. It lacks the typical Japanese precision in the gilt work. When you look closely a lot of the “gilding” looks like very careless restoration or maybe even paint. Look at the way it has “bled” beyond its intended area. I haven’t compared it to a lot of other Soten but to my eyes it’s dubious. Could be genuine but just tarted up. Personally I’d be asking them to have a closer look…..and I would not pay yet. 

 

[Curran]

It looks legit to me.

I have no idea what you paid for it. The auction was a bit of a stretch to equate it with the Bonhams one.

 

Nearly 30 years in, I still make a mistake from time to time.

I made one last year when I got a tsuba a bit too cheap. 

Not a travesty, but the condition was not as expected.

 

Curran

 

[Exclus1ve]

Hello!
I honestly do not share the opinion that many people have about the Soten school. Since I once purchased a shakudo Soten tsuba myself, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the subject and made a huge number of comparisons (1000+) in order to understand it properly.

9 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

It does not seem to have ORIGAMI which is a red flag in my eyes, specifically with SOTEN TSUBA. There is the saying that "from 100 SOTEN signed TSUBA on a table, very likely all are copies".

Depending on the price, I would look carefully and compare.  If it was cheap, then it is probably safe to assume it is a copy. If it was expensive (> € 600.--) I would ask for a certification paper.

Just my 2 YEN.

I am always surprised when I see statements of this kind… What exactly do you expect to see in these papers? Practically all tsuba signed “Soten” are identified in the papers as belonging to the Soten school. And what does “copy” even mean here? This is unquestionably an original 19-century piece. The fact that it was not made by Soten himself does not make it a copy.

There were many craftsmen working within this school, and there was a tradition of signing tsuba with the same signature, and almost all of them receive NBTHK papers. Only a small number of Soten school tsuba have distinctive signatures like these: 

https://nihonto.com/1-01-23/

https://nihonto.com/juyo-tsuba-by-nomura-kanenori-野村包教/

 

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I am very suspicious. It lacks the typical Japanese precision in the gilt work. When you look closely a lot of the “gilding” looks like very careless restoration or maybe even paint. Look at the way it has “bled” beyond its intended area. I haven’t compared it to a lot of other Soten but to my eyes it’s dubious. Could be genuine but just tarted up.  

 

I can also say that this is normal not only for the Soten school, but generally for other schools as well, especially when it comes to gilding. In almost any work you can find inaccuracies, and with gilding this happens much more often. Many people, I’m sure, know these Ishiguro Masaaki menuki - there’s a nuance there too, yet everyone is perfectly calm about it) 

 

As for this tsuba, I believe it was made in the Soten style. Geraint provided a good example. 

Edited Saturday at 11:52 PM by Exclus1ve

[Matsunoki]

Just for comparison…….

 

[ROKUJURO]

Viktor,

I have not compared 1.000 SOTEN TSUBA, but I have seen images of really good ones and less good ones. I think there is no doubt that many TSUBA were made in the SOTEN (or HIKONE BORI) style when they were in fashion, that had nothing to do with SOTEN or their school directly.

I posted my comment mainly because the auction house Zacke compared this TSUBA to one that was sold 10 years ago at Bonham's for an equivalent of € 5.800.--, and I don't think the above TSUBA is in that range.

[Matsunoki]

37 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

because the auction house Zacke compared this TSUBA to one that was sold 10 years ago at Bonham's for an equivalent of € 5.800.-

Zacke do  make some very optimistic comparisons …….citing other auction results. Good marketing but always best ignored. 

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Just for comparison…….

 

I do not dispute that the works differ in quality. However, there is also some inaccuracy in the application of the gilding here. And I will repeat myself: this is quite common even in works of the very highest level - it is simply a characteristic of the technique. It is genuinely difficult to apply exactly the right amount of gold amalgam so that, after heating, it does not flow beyond the intended contour, especially at such a small scale.
If we are talking about “inlay,” then it is indeed precise even at the smallest sizes. However, inlay is a more labor-intensive process, which is why amalgam gilding is more commonly used, as in the author’s example. You, on the other hand, have shown examples where most of the gold elements are inlay (nunome zogan), and therefore the margin for error is smaller, however, where amalgam gilding is used, inaccuracies are present.

 

Below is an example of my tsuba with different types of gilding. I have outlined the amalgam gilding in red, the other elements are inlay, whereas the author’s tsuba uses only amalgam gilding.

[Matsunoki]

Victor, I am not seeking an argument, merely pointing out what I see on the tsuba in question……which is poor quality workmanship in my opinion and possibly touched in with later restoration. Unless we have it in our hands we cannot be  certain. 

 

[Spartancrest]

Unsigned Soten - very unusual - I think I agree with Piers. Hikone-bori.   

 

[Matsunoki]

Also it’s worth knowing that nowadays one of the more commonly used methods to restore gilding on Japanese metalwork (including tsuba) is not done by amalgam nor by zogan (of any type) nor by foiling or leading,

….it is done using modern masking fluids and electrolysis whereby immersion in the gold plating fluid deposits gold on the exposed areas ie it is electroplating. 
Modern masking fluids can facilitate very precise plating and different colours of gold are available. The skill lies in the base preparation and the precision of the masking. This is where these overflows and “bleeds” can occur.

In the past I have had tired shakudo  tsuba both  repatinated and then re gilded in worn areas by someone who knew what he was doing.

When done well it is virtually impossible to tell it from gold butter gilding.

When done badly or carelessly the results can look like the tsuba in question.

But anyway, it may be totally original but simply not the best quality.

[MaxT]

Thank you all very much for your insights. In conclusion I can assume this is a traditionally made antique Tsuba made from Shakudo? In your opinion, what would be an acceptable price range for this piece? 

[Matsunoki]

37 minutes ago, MaxT said:

In conclusion I can assume this is a traditionally made antique Tsuba made from Shakudo?

Correct.

[MaxT]

Also, could someone enlighten me on the manufacturing process of these Tsuba? Is the raw Form cast? Does this look like leftover cast flash?

?

Edited Sunday at 08:04 PM by MaxT

[ROKUJURO]

Max,

traditionally, a raw blank was cast and hammered to the desired size. Then the design was cut/sawed (= later technique) and chiseled and filed and polished - quite some work!

But you cannot detect if a soft-metal TSUBA was pre-cast in a mold and then worked on and finished. This was done in an extent with later TSUBA when Western technology was known in Japan.

[Jake6500]

I don't know enough about Soten school works to add too much to the discussion beyond what has already been said...

 

What I will say is that I think there is a consensus amongst most if not everyone here that the tsuba is authentic in the sense that it is antique, not modern and is "Soten style" making the description of the auction house mostly accurate. Anyone who disagrees with this, feel free to reply and correct me but this seems to be a point of agreement amongst everyone.

 

The disagreement seemingly comes from whether we view this as low or medium quality work and by extension its price point or value. Unfortunately I can't view the original listing as it is no longer available now that the auction is done, but I'd say if you haven't paid a lot you probably got a good deal. Going off the screenshots you and Colin uploaded I can see some of the mild gilding flaws Colin has pointed to, but I can also see some fine details such as the fine lines in the armor / pauldrons, etc.

 

All in all it doesn't seem like a bad pickup to me. I think Colin has high standards (which is a good thing in this hobby!) Of course, it also depends how much you paid. As I can't see the full tsuba I'm not even going to try to give a value estimation.

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:35 AM by Jake6500

[Brian]

I'm also in the "average Soten school tsuba" camp. Nothing top, but not just. As for value...I guess you would pay $400 or so for one in a shop or a dealer? That is a wild guess though, I may easily stand corrected

[MaxT]

6 hours ago, Jake6500 said:

I don't know enough about Soten school works to add too much to the discussion beyond what has already been said...

 

What I will say is that I think there is a consensus amongst most if not everyone here that the tsuba is authentic in the sense that it is antique, not modern and is "Soten style" making the description of the auction house mostly accurate. Anyone who disagrees with this, feel free to reply and correct me but this seems to be a point of agreement amongst everyone.

 

The disagreement seemingly comes from whether we view this as low or medium quality work and by extension its price point or value. Unfortunately I can't view the original listing as it is no longer available now that the auction is done, but I'd say if you haven't paid a lot you probably got a good deal. Going off the screenshots you and Colin uploaded I can see some of the mild gilding flaws Colin has pointed to, but I can also see some fine details such as the fine lines in the armor / pauldrons, etc.

 

All in all it doesn't seem like a bad pickup to me. I think Colin has high standards (which is a good thing in this hobby!) Of course, it also depends how much you paid. As I can't see the full tsuba I'm not even going to try to give a value estimation.

 

 

Thank you very much for your evaluation. I originally made an offer for 350 Euro which will be about 450 after taxes and fees... I honestly did not fully expect to actually win the auction as this looked like quite an impressive Tsuba for me as a layman. Overall there were several Tsuba in this auction that sold for little money compared to listings from Japanese dealers. I guess I have to do my homework next time before bidding.  Here is a picture of the entire Tsuba for reference:  

[MaxT]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

I'm also in the "average Soten school tsuba" camp. Nothing top, but not just. As for value...I guess you would pay $400 or so for one in a shop or a dealer? That is a wild guess though, I may easily stand corrected

Tank you very much for your answer. Well that is in the ballpark of my bid... I honestly expected it to be worth a little bit more, since it looked quite elaborate for me as a layman collector and the material is quite nice. I really should study more and buy less . 

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, MaxT said:

 I really should study more and buy less . 

Not an uncommon sentiment around here. Its a really knotty field to collect and we all make mistakes, especially early on.

 

I say this a lot but seriously consider joining the NBTHK-EB. We meet in Solingen and Manching and this is one of the best and one of the few opportunities we Europeans have to study top level Nihonto and Tosogu (incl Juyo and TJ level pieces). Next meeting is 31/1/26 in Solingen (PM me if you would like to attend this event for details or one later in the year). Eckhard Kremers, The President of the European Branch, is one of the foremost  experts for fittings, especially tsuba and has written books on the subject. This is where you get your education. 

[Matsunoki]

Like Lewis (great advice there), I say this a lot as well……

One of the best ways to start developing an “eye” if you cannot physically handle a lot of pieces is to study past auction results. Usually you get a few decent images and can often see the price they sold for, when and where they were sold etc. Images can be enlarged if of sufficient quality enabling the finer details to be examined. You will not learn everything but you will start to be able to discern what “quality” looks like and what quality costs.

It’s just my opinion and others will disagree but I think it’s far more important to recognise quality, both in artistry and manufacture than it is to chase Mei.

It’s the same principle that is applied to swords……buy the item, not the Mei

A good place to start….(and your tsuba is fine around that price imo)

 

https://www.bonhams.com/search/?chronology=past&query=Tsuba

[MaxT]

14 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Like Lewis (great advice there), I say this a lot as well……

One of the best ways to start developing an “eye” if you cannot physically handle a lot of pieces is to study past auction results. Usually you get a few decent images and can often see the price they sold for, when and where they were sold etc. Images can be enlarged if of sufficient quality enabling the finer details to be examined. You will not learn everything but you will start to be able to discern what “quality” looks like and what quality costs.

It’s just my opinion and others will disagree but I think it’s far more important to recognise quality, both in artistry and manufacture than it is to chase Mei.

It’s the same principle that is applied to swords……buy the item, not the Mei

A good place to start….(and your tsuba is fine around that price imo)

 

https://www.bonhams.com/search/?chronology=past&query=Tsuba

Thank you for the tip. This has been pretty much my modus operandi up to now... and still the above tsuba looks really nice to me (I honestly don't mind the minor gilding errors all too much). Can you pinpoint what would make this tsuba "lower quality"? To my layman eyes the detailwork looks impressive still, and to be honest I quite like the composition... 

 

Also this might be a stupid question but isn't shakudo like 3-5% gold? If so wouldn't there be some value in the material alone? (Not that I would ever melt it down, of course - just out of curiosity) 

[MaxT]

42 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Not an common sentiment around here. Its a really knotty field to collect and we all make mistakes, especially early on.

 

I say this a lot but seriously consider joining the NBTHK-EB. We meet in Solingen and Manching and this is one of the best and one of the few opportunities we Europeans have to study top level Nihonto and Tosogu (incl Juyo and TJ level pieces). Next meeting is 31/1/26 in Solingen (PM me if you would like to attend this event for details or one later in the year). Eckhard Kremers, The President of the European Branch, is one of the foremost  experts for fittings, especially tsuba and has written books on the subject. This is where you get your education. 

Thank you for the offer, I really would like to visit! Although Manching is a lot closer to where I live than Solingen...

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, MaxT said:

Also this might be a stupid question but isn't shakudo like 3-5% gold? If so wouldn't there be some value in the material alone? (Not that I would ever melt it down, of course - just out of curiosity) 

Yes  shakudo does contain gold in varying proportions.

 

5 minutes ago, MaxT said:

Can you pinpoint what would make this tsuba "lower quality"?

….and therein lies the crux of the matter.

lower quality compared to what?

Compared to other similar tsuba (Soten or otherwise….iron or otherwise)?

Compared to other Shakudo tsuba?

Compared to Nagoya mono? (search on this forum for this topic……you will find it enlightening and a great place to start)

How long is the proverbial piece of string?

…..and it also depends on your own “taste”

 

[Lewis B]

31 minutes ago, MaxT said:

Thank you for the offer, I really would like to visit! Although Manching is a lot closer to where I live than Solingen...

There are fewer meet-ups in Manching, probably 2 per year and 4 in Solingen. What I have noticed is the turnout is a little better down South, usually 30-35 attendees. For 2026 the Manching meetings will take place on 25/4 and 26/9. You are entitled to attend one meeting as a guest and to see if it interests you. I promise you will not be disappointed. 

 

Finally early bird tickets for the Japan Art Fair in Utrecht in mid June have just gone on sale. This 3 day event is as serious as it gets, growing every year with dealers from all over Europe, Japan and North America. It's the best event to see and purchase Nihonto, Kodogu and Tosogu this side of the Atlantic. 

 

 

[Exclus1ve]

I absolutely agree with Colin. I should also add that the Ford Hallam videos helped me a lot. This allowed us to understand how these things were made and what the difference is between them. Everything is always learned by comparison. For this money, I think it's a good tsuba.

[Jake6500]

Colin is right, developing an eye for quality is priority number 1 in this hobby. High standards and an eye for quality lead to a collection of appreciating assets...

 

That said 400 Euro or so for your tsuba seems like a decent price to me. I don't think you did too bad at all.