Mei identification

[miner1436]

Could somebody translate this Mei please? And if possible tell me a little about the smith? And when it was made if it has the date? The blade is from a shin gunto I bought online recently.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6044/scan0011l.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2663/scan0010v.jpg

Thanks, Rich

[John A Stuart]

A smith named 包守 Kanekami, I believe. John

[miner1436]

Some more pics if it helps:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7420/scan0013qz.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/8052/scan0012o.jpg

 

Rich

[John A Stuart]

It is rather hard to read sensibly, 利一文宇?包守作 This may be right. John

[Nobody]

Maybe;

菊一文字源包守作 - Kiku Ichimonji Minamoto Kanemori saku

[miner1436]

I noticed those scans didn't come out all that well, hopefully these are better. Thanks for the info so far. Also, how much do you think a blade like this is worth?

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6065/scan0015af.jpg

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7978/scan0016d.jpg

 

Thanks, Rich

[John A Stuart]

here is some info by Doctor Takeuchi from SFI a while ago. John

 

However, the problem is that those lists use the tosho's real surname combined with their art first name, and this particular tosho signed his mei using his art surname (Minamoto [Œ¹]) and art first name (Kanemori[•ïŽç]). In fact, I am still unable to find "Kanemori[•ïŽç]" with any surname in the Japanese versions of "Army Ranking List" (Tosho Iretsu Hyo) selected by Kurihara, Hikosaburo and published by then Tosho Kyokai or in "Seki Tanrensho tosho" list compiled by Jinsoo Kim (on his internet site)... I was not able to find this particular "Kanemori" in Tosho zenshu (Shimizu, 1996) nor in the list of currently active gendai-tosho by Tsuchiko (1999), either.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, it is a common knowledge among Nihon-to circle that when you see two tosho who share the same surname (be it art surname or real) AND one character of their art first name (i.e., less common "Kane[•ï]" in this case), chances are that those two tosho are closely related either biologically/through marriage (in case of sharing the real surname) or apprenticeship (in case of sharing the same art surname). In some cases, the two tosho may actually be the same individual as some tosho changed their art (first) names occasionally while retaining one character yet replacing another in their "niji (two character) mei" for various reasons (e.g., Miyaguchi "Ikkansai" Yasuhiro/Toshihiro[–õL/ŽõL]) (Kishida, 2000; Shimizu, 1996; Tsuneishi, 1990).

 

According to Tosho Zenshu (Shimizu, 1996), there is a Showa era gendai tosho by the name Moriguchi Jiro (a student of late Miyamoto, Kanenori and Kasama, Shigetsugu) who used the art name Minamoto Kaneharu [Œ¹ •ïŽ¡] (with the same "Kane[•ï]" character with the one in his teacher's art name and the one in this particular "Kanemori"), who actively made many shingun-to during WW2. For the reasons I explained above, I still suspect that there may be some connection between this particular tosho "Minamoto Kanemori" and Moriguchi Jiro (= Minamoto Kaneharu) who worked during the same time period....

 

Regarding "Yasuki hagane," here is an interesting piece of information for those who are interested in Japanese officers' swords. According to existing record, the Ministry of Imperial Army of Japan also decided to look into the possible use of the famous "Yasuki hagane" (i.e., Yasuki Shiro-gami 3 go = Yasuki hagane type "white paper" model No.3) in their production of high-end zohei-to (gun-to that conformed to the military specs, but made not only by the jumei but also by private tosho), despite the fact that "Yasuki steel" was very expensive and not suitable to be use for production of gun-to. As a matter of fact, in 1939 Army Production Laboratory in Kokura ordered several civilian tosho in Iwakuni-cho, Ymaguchi, pref. to produce zohei-to in some sort of "san-mai" construction using this "Yasuki steel" as the ha and smelted Japanese steel as the cover (Troll, 1998). Existing records of Imperial Army lab tests indicate that those "Yasuki Hagane" swords performed as well as other conventional and mass-produce gun-to in "maru-kitae" construction in terms of cutting ability and edge holding, though they would eventually brake (instead of taking a set) during the impact tests on the side and on the mune. (For specific information on the testing procedure, see Troll, 1998).

 

In the official Army report, the identities of those civilian tosho who supplied the "Yasuki hagane" test blades were kept confidential to minimize any bias in favor of or against particular tosho (Troll, 1998). Therefore, I have no information to substantiate if this "Minamoto Kanemori" was one of them...

 

Hope this helps clarify some of the confusions.

[miner1436]

Wow, that explains a lot, thanks! Is there a way to know if the blade is made of yasuki steel?

 

Thanks, Rich

[John A Stuart]

I don't think so without destructive tests, unless inscribed as such as a sword that was translated by Moriyama san recently.

高山刀鍛練所於氏房造(之) – At Takayama-To Forge, Ujifusa made this.

以安来鋼作之 – This is made from Yasuki steel.

 

Yasuki Steel (“White and Blue Paper Steel”) No. 719600/01/05/15/16/17/18

DICK GmbH • Donaustr. 51 • 94526 Metten • Germany

Tel. +49 - 991 91 09 30 • Fax +49 - 991 91 09 50

http://www.dick.biz • info@dick.biz

This carbon steel, supplied by the HITACHI company based in Yasugi, Japan, is made from high-quality iron sand using smelting methods similar to

those used to make traditional sword steel. It has the highest purity of all the commercial steels used for forging tools and is commonly forge-welded

to a wrought iron base to make high-quality tool blades and knives. Once hardened, the steel has an extremely fine-grained, martensitic structure that

displays excellent sharpening properties.

Composition

"White Paper Steel" C 1.1 - 1.2%, Si 0.1 - 0.2%, P

"Blue Paper Steel" C 1.1 - 1.2%, Si 0.1 - 0.2%, Mn 0.2 - 0.3%, Cr 0.2 - 0.5%, W 1.0 - 1.5%, P

Forging

The steel is delivered unhardened. Yasugi Steel should be forged carefully between 800°C to 900°C (red-yellow heat) because of its high carbon content.

Higher temperatures will cause the steel to oxidize and lose its fine-grained structure, lower temperatures can lead to cracks in the steel. To maintain

the highest quality crystalline structure, we recommend completing the final steps of forging at a somewhat reduced temperature (750°C) and a higher

frequency of hammer blows. Try to keep the time spent heating and forging the steel to a minimum to prevent the carbon from diffusing out of the steel.

The best results are attained using a charcoal fire (sulphur and phosphate-free).

The steel can be forged-welded to wrought iron (at temperatures of 1100°C, yellow-white heat) with the addition of Borax. Make sure both the forge

and anvil are clean prior to forge-welding.

The heat treatment of the blank after forging involves three steps:

1. Annealing: Prolonged baking at temperatures slightly less than hardening to produce a uniform, crystalline structure.

2. Hardening: Heating to the hardening temperature and subsequently quenching the steel in lukewarm water or oil.

3. Tempering: Heating to a lower, tempering temperature to reduce the mechanical stress built up during the forging process in the structure

of the steel.

The steel blank should be fully formed and ground prior to heat treatment. It is very important to ensure an equal distribution of heat in the forge or to

use a special hardening chamber. We have provided some values below for reference. The actual values may vary somewhat depending on several other

factors (surface structure, time, laminate structure).

All temperatures are listed in °C.

"White Paper Steel" Annealing temperature: 740°C - 770°C

Hardening temperature: 760°C - 830°C (Fig. 1)

Quench in lukewarm water or oil * * Tip: We recommend using oil (i.e. vegetable oil) as it

Tempering temperature: 180°C - 220°C (Fig. 2) reduces the risk of cracks, especially in thin pieces.

Final hardness ca. 62 RC

"Blue Paper Steel" Annealing temperature: 750°C - 780°C

Hardening temperature: 780°C - 830°C (Fig. 3)

Quench in lukewarm oil

Tempering temperature: 160°C - 230°C (Fig.4)

Final hardness ca 62 RC

It is important that the steel be heated slowly and uniformly during the annealing, hardening and tempering process. The higher the annealing temperature

and duration is, the less hard and more elastic the resulting steel. (Fig. 2 and fig. 4).

Grinding

It is very important to avoid temperatures above 150°C once it has been hardened and annealed. Grinding the steel on a dry sharpening machine or

belt sander is especially harmful its crystalline structure. We recommend using a water-cooled sharpening machine or sharpening by hand using

Japanese waterstones.

Corrosion Protection

Both "White" and "Blue Paper Steel" are not corrosion-free. We recommend wiping the finished blades with an acid-free oil (camellia oil or Ballistol) to

protect them from corrosion damage.

This set of instructions can also be found on our internet site (http://www.dick.biz).

Fig. 1

[miner1436]

Intresting, do you have any idea how much this sword in full army mounts without scratches or pitting/rust/chips would be worth?

 

Rich

[John A Stuart]

Sorry, prices are not my area. John

[ottou812]

It's only worth as much as someone else is willing to pay for it.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/22/2010 at 10:39 PM, John A Stuart said:

I don't think so without destructive tests, unless inscribed as such as a sword that was translated by Moriyama san recently.

高山刀鍛練所於氏房造(之) – At Takayama-To Forge, Ujifusa made this.

以安来鋼作之 – This is made from Yasuki steel.

 

Yasuki Steel (“White and Blue Paper Steel”) No. 719600/01/05/15/16/17/18

DICK GmbH • Donaustr. 51 • 94526 Metten • Germany

Tel. +49 - 991 91 09 30 • Fax +49 - 991 91 09 50

http://www.dick.biz • info@dick.biz

This carbon steel, supplied by the HITACHI company based in Yasugi, Japan, is made from high-quality iron sand using smelting methods similar to

those used to make traditional sword steel. It has the highest purity of all the commercial steels used for forging tools and is commonly forge-welded

to a wrought iron base to make high-quality tool blades and knives. Once hardened, the steel has an extremely fine-grained, martensitic structure that

displays excellent sharpening properties.

Composition

"White Paper Steel" C 1.1 - 1.2%, Si 0.1 - 0.2%, P

"Blue Paper Steel" C 1.1 - 1.2%, Si 0.1 - 0.2%, Mn 0.2 - 0.3%, Cr 0.2 - 0.5%, W 1.0 - 1.5%, P

Forging

The steel is delivered unhardened. Yasugi Steel should be forged carefully between 800°C to 900°C (red-yellow heat) because of its high carbon content.

Higher temperatures will cause the steel to oxidize and lose its fine-grained structure, lower temperatures can lead to cracks in the steel. To maintain

the highest quality crystalline structure, we recommend completing the final steps of forging at a somewhat reduced temperature (750°C) and a higher

frequency of hammer blows. Try to keep the time spent heating and forging the steel to a minimum to prevent the carbon from diffusing out of the steel.

The best results are attained using a charcoal fire (sulphur and phosphate-free).

The steel can be forged-welded to wrought iron (at temperatures of 1100°C, yellow-white heat) with the addition of Borax. Make sure both the forge

and anvil are clean prior to forge-welding.

The heat treatment of the blank after forging involves three steps:

1. Annealing: Prolonged baking at temperatures slightly less than hardening to produce a uniform, crystalline structure.

2. Hardening: Heating to the hardening temperature and subsequently quenching the steel in lukewarm water or oil.

3. Tempering: Heating to a lower, tempering temperature to reduce the mechanical stress built up during the forging process in the structure

of the steel.

The steel blank should be fully formed and ground prior to heat treatment. It is very important to ensure an equal distribution of heat in the forge or to

use a special hardening chamber. We have provided some values below for reference. The actual values may vary somewhat depending on several other

factors (surface structure, time, laminate structure).

All temperatures are listed in °C.

"White Paper Steel" Annealing temperature: 740°C - 770°C

Hardening temperature: 760°C - 830°C (Fig. 1)

Quench in lukewarm water or oil * * Tip: We recommend using oil (i.e. vegetable oil) as it

Tempering temperature: 180°C - 220°C (Fig. 2) reduces the risk of cracks, especially in thin pieces.

Final hardness ca. 62 RC

"Blue Paper Steel" Annealing temperature: 750°C - 780°C

Hardening temperature: 780°C - 830°C (Fig. 3)

Quench in lukewarm oil

Tempering temperature: 160°C - 230°C (Fig.4)

Final hardness ca 62 RC

It is important that the steel be heated slowly and uniformly during the annealing, hardening and tempering process. The higher the annealing temperature

and duration is, the less hard and more elastic the resulting steel. (Fig. 2 and fig. 4).

Grinding

It is very important to avoid temperatures above 150°C once it has been hardened and annealed. Grinding the steel on a dry sharpening machine or

belt sander is especially harmful its crystalline structure. We recommend using a water-cooled sharpening machine or sharpening by hand using

Japanese waterstones.

Corrosion Protection

Both "White" and "Blue Paper Steel" are not corrosion-free. We recommend wiping the finished blades with an acid-free oil (camellia oil or Ballistol) to

protect them from corrosion damage.

This set of instructions can also be found on our internet site (http://www.dick.biz).

Fig. 1

John,

I was reading a site that ran some history of the Yasugi Steel company and they mentioned the "akome sand iron".  Is this the same steel you've mentioned here?  Can you help me understand how this sand iron differs from tamahagane sand iron and why it's use disqualifies a blade as being "traditionally made?"

[John A Stuart]

There are a few types of iron sand of which akome and masa are closely related. Masa is used in keraoshi smelting whilst akome is used in the zukuoshi smelting. There is also river sand and beach sand ores. I do not know what sand ore they use but by the steel composition it has a low Ti % which is odd. John

[Shugyosha]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John,

I was reading a site that ran some history of the Yasugi Steel company and they mentioned the "akome sand iron".  Is this the same steel you've mentioned here?  Can you help me understand how this sand iron differs from tamahagane sand iron and why it's use disqualifies a blade as being "traditionally made?"

 

If it's refined using a tatara what comes out is tamahagane for use in traditionally made swords. If refined via other methods, then the iron/ steel is not tamahagane.

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

.....I was reading a site that ran some history of the Yasugi Steel company and they mentioned the "akome sand iron".  Is this the same steel you've mentioned here?  Can you help me understand how this sand iron differs from tamahagane sand iron and why it's use disqualifies a blade as being "traditionally made?"

Bruce,

the main thing to differ is that 'iron sand' (SA TETSU, not sand iron) is an iron ore, a primary material. TAMAHAGANE is raw iron (with differing carbon content) made in a TATARA from iron ore/iron sand. Steel for blades can be made from TAMAHAGANE by refining it and combining different qualities (different carbon contens). Basically what the Johns said.

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm starting to catch on, I think.  So, the tatara is foundational to "traditionally made" steel.  The Yasugi Steel Co. created 2 more modern methods:

 

"Seijo particle iron is made by smelting charcoal pig iron manufactured in a square furnace in an electric furnace and then putting it into a stream of water. It is used as source iron of a particle shape. Kaimen iron is made by putting charcoal and iron sand into a kind of rotary kiln called a tokamiro, reducing it at low heat, and producing iron that is spongelike in shape." Source: Hitachi-metals.co.jp

 

So, Yasugi was using electric furnaces and rotary kilns.  Regardless of the original ore, this would have made their steel, and therefore blades made from it, non-traditionally-made.

 

Now, to focus on the ore - did tamahagane have to come from a specific ore type? Or was it simply the tatara smelting, regardless of ore source, that created tamahagane?

[ROKUJURO]

In former (KOTO) times, the smiths had to process the local ore by themselves in their own TATARA to obtain the necessary TAMAHAGANE. In SHINTO era, bigger and centralized TATARA were built and run by specialized craftsmen, producing large amounts of TAMAHAGANE from local sources of ore (maybe a number of different ores if in reach). The TAMAHAGANE was then sold to the swordsmiths, saving them a lot of work and time, but supplying them with less 'individual' steel.

To answer your question, TATARA means the furnace type, but we usually understand it also as the process. Ores of differing sources can be used, yielding a very much similar material as alloying elements which are always present in the iron ore were not reduced and transferred into the TAMAHAGANE. All iron ores contain many more chemical elements and not only iron oxide. But to reduce these, higher temperatures up to the liquid state of the metals would be necessary. With a max. temperature of about 1.300°C (melting point of iron is 1.538°C), the reduced iron in the furnace only reached a state of low plasticity. This prevented the other elements of being reduced as well and finding their way into the iron (which is the case in modern blast furnaces which cannot produce pure iron). Thus, (raw) TAMAHAGANE can have a lot of impurities, but the main alloying element is carbon, and it is otherwise very 'clean'.  

It is the work of the swordsmith to 'see' the quality of the supplied TAMAHAGANE and to refine it by stretching it out on the anvil, folding it, and fire-welding it again repeatedly. Depending on his work and skill, the resulting steel can have differing properties from hard to resilient, according to the purity and the carbon content.

This is just a very general description, leaving out some steps and of course, personal tricks and habits of the smiths.
 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Jean.  Good explanation!

[Jacques D.]

Worth reading : 

 

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/tatara/nnp0201.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes!  That's what generated my questions.  Good article.