Rinji Seishiki Gunto Mei Translation

[Klink]

Appreciate help with the mei.  Thanks in advance.

 

[David Flynn]

Yoshitada, 1945.

[Rawa]

What color of scabbard? White/creamy?

[Klink]

Unfortunately this one does not have a scabbard.  I ask myself how does one loose a scabbard..

[Klink]

Quote:

The Gifu-in-sakura stamp (a symbol of a "Gi" character within a cherry blossom) was adopted around 1944, potentially by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association (or an equivalent body), to differentiate swords made in the Gifu region from those marked with the army's Nagoya arsenal stamp, which caused confusion. This was a shift from the large Seki stamp to avoid duplication and avoid conflict with military inspectors, with swordsmiths in the area transitioning to the Gifu stamp in 1944 and 1945.   

 

There is one Gifu stamp on the nakago and the other on the mune.

[Bruce Pennington]

May, 1945

 

Dean, where did you find that quote?

 

Concerning the missing saya, I don't remember if it was a movie scene or something from a book I read, but a G.I. picked up a sword that had been brandished by it's Japanese owner during a battle.  He was battle weary, and didn't bother to get the saya off the dead soldier.  I suspect many swords were picked up this way.  In another book, G.I.s were grabbing swords from a pile.  One could easily have been in the pile without it's saya, or simply slid out of it's saya when pulled from the pile.

[Klink]

Does the two symbol Kanji in picture 3 say Yoshitada?  If so I am trying to figure out which person it was.  There is reference to rikugun jumei tosho swordsmiths named  

• Hizen (no) Kuni ju nin Yoshitada
• Saga (Hizen) Yoshitada
• Hizen Kuni Kinoshita Yoshitada

There apparently are no know Seki smiths by that name...

 

[Klink]

Bruce it was a Google AI quote.  Here is the full content..

The Gifu-in-sakura stamp was a specific mark used by sword makers in the Gifu region of Japan in 1944 and 1945, and symbolized the character for "Gi" inside a cherry blossom. Its adoption was driven by several factors related to the Japanese war effort and the production of military swords known as gunto. 

The context and purpose of the stamp

• Wartime demand: During World War II, the Seki area in Gifu was a major center for sword production, with approximately 18,000 swords per month being sent to military organizations.
• Need for quality control: The massive scale of production led to confusion between traditionally made blades (gendaito) and the lower-quality, non-traditionally forged blades (showato) that made up the bulk of military production.
• Conflict with military inspectors: To address concerns about quality, the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association initially used a large "Seki" stamp to inspect and identify blades. However, this caused conflict when the Nagoya Army Arsenal commandeered the mark around 1942 for its own inspector stamps.
• Avoiding confusion: The new Gifu-in-sakura stamp was adopted to distinguish swords made in the Gifu region from those marked by the army's Nagoya arsenal stamp, clarifying the origin of the blade. The transition to this new mark occurred in 1944 and 1945. 

Symbolism of the stamp

The stamp's symbolism was significant for the swordsmiths and the military:

• "Gi" character: The inclusion of the "Gi" character directly references Gifu Prefecture and identifies the blade as originating from the area.
• Cherry blossom (sakura): The cherry blossom is an important symbol in Japanese culture, representing the fleeting nature of life and serving as an emblem of the samurai. Its inclusion on the stamp tied the mass-produced military blades to this long-standing tradition. 

Interpretation for modern collectors

For modern collectors, the presence of a Gifu-in-sakura stamp helps to date a sword to the final years of WWII and indicates its point of origin. However, the stamp's presence also suggests that the blade is most likely a showato (non-traditionally made) rather than a traditionally forge

[Klink]

18,000 swords a month.... Thats some quota.  I wonder how many a day that works out to for the Gunto smith??

 

[Scogg]

Beware, AI is often not entirely accurate when it comes to Japanese swords.

It pulls from a variety of sources, one of which is this forum, and you never know if it decided to take info from a beginner or from an expert. Also, information surrounding Japanese military swords has evolved over the years, so you can't rely on it to source up-to-date information vs outdated information. 

 

Often times, when it doesn't find a reliable answer, it "fills in the blanks", which can be misleading.
We've tested it over the years with varying levels of accuracy. Sometimes it’s right, other times it’s wrong.

 

Just beware not to trust everything it says.

-Sam

 

[Rawa]

37 minutes ago, Scogg said:

Beware, AI is often not entirely accurate when it comes to Japanese swords.

It pulls from a variety of sources, one of which is this forum, and you never know if it decided to take info from a beginner or from an expert. Also, information surrounding Japanese military swords has evolved over the years, so you can't rely on it to source up-to-date information vs outdated information. 

 

Often times, when it doesn't find a reliable answer, it "fills in the blanks", which can be misleading.
We've tested it over the years with varying levels of accuracy.

Just beware not to trust everything it says.

-Sam

 

300/400 seki tosho would easily made this amount alone.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Klink said:

Does the two symbol Kanji in picture 3 say Yoshitada?  If so I am trying to figure out which person it was.  There is reference to rikugun jumei tosho swordsmiths named  

• Hizen (no) Kuni ju nin Yoshitada
• Saga (Hizen) Yoshitada
• Hizen Kuni Kinoshita Yoshitada

There apparently are no know Seki smiths by that name...

 

 

Sesko doesn't list a WWII Yoshitada, which often happens.  

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Klink said:

Bruce it was a Google AI quote.

Thanks, Dean.  I tried a couple or 3 ways and didn't get the same text.  I suppose it depends upon the exact words in asking the question.  I was just curious to see it's sources, because it sounded suspiciously close to quoting ME! Ha!

 

We were discussing the stamp a while ago.  I was leaning toward it being a civil stamp as the only other stamp on blades using the sakura was the Showa stamp.  So, I speculated that maybe the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc. picked up using the stamp in the last 2 years of the war.  The complication comes when I created a chart showing whether stamped blades were tachi mei or katana mei.  Quite strikingly, the blades with civil stamps - Showa and large Seki - were all katana mei, while arsenal stamped blades were all tachi mei.  When you look a Gifu stamped blades, they are all tachi mei ........ the implication being that the stamp was an arsenal stamp and not civil.  I've current flipped over to the theory that it was a regional stamp being used by the Nagoya Arsenal inspectors in Gifu.  In 1943, stamping practices greatly expanded into regional/locale stamps.  So, the Gifu might have been a Nagoya inspector.

[Klink]

So May of 1945 was getting close to the end.  I wonder if the factories shut down prior to the end of the war.  

 

[Scogg]

 

I don't know exactly which ones, or how many factories and locations were destroyed prior to the end of the war (shutting down production). Or if the following is relevant to your particular sword. But you might find the following interesting:

 

There was extensive firebombing campaigns carried out by the United States over Japan in 1945, months before the atomic bombs were dropped.
 

In particular, Tokyo was devastated. By April 1945, much of the city had been bombed, and its industrial infrastructure including key arsenals and war facilities, had been largely destroyed. Thanks to visits from B29 superfortresses.

All the best,
-Sam

https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo

[BANGBANGSAN]

義忠 Yoshitada

 

昭和二十年五月 1945 May

[SteveM]

Ohmura lists an arsenal smith named Yoshitada (義忠) who won the "Chairman's Prize" in the arsenal smith category in 1944. 

 

http://ohmura-study.net/025.html

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't recall where to find the discussion, but Nick Komiya at Warrelics had said that there was a concerted effort to transfer and transport sword making machinery over to Manchuria and/or Korea as their factories were being destroyed by the bombing.  According to him, they never got fully operational from the attempted move.

[SteveM]

Since the OP asked about sword production shutdowns, @Bruce Pennington what's the latest dated WW2 sword in your records? 

I think there have been a few from June in 1945, and maybe one from July. Is my memory correct?

[Bruce Pennington]

12 minutes ago, SteveM said:

I think there have been a few from June in 1945, and maybe one from July. Is my memory correct?

Did a quick scan.  June '45 was the latest I have in the charts:

3 x Yoshitada

1 Kiyotsugu

1 Masatsugu

1 Tadamori

 

I didn't see any later than that.  

 

Keep in mind, though, my chart is only stamped blades.  There very well could be later blades out there, just without stamps.

[Klink]

I was enjoying reading the Ohmura-study but now when I bring up the website I don't get the english translation option to click on.  I was going to quote the author but by paraphrasing I thought it said that facilities that were bombed had work in progress that were never finished. 

  

[Klink]

Based on Bruce's notes, it looks like not only did Yoshitada (義忠) win the "Chairman's Prize" in the arsenal smith category in 1944 but he also produced more then the other smiths (based on a statistical population of six)... 

[Rawa]

17 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Did a quick scan.  June '45 was the latest I have in the charts:

3 x Yoshitada

1 Kiyotsugu

1 Masatsugu

1 Tadamori

 

I didn't see any later than that.  

 

Keep in mind, though, my chart is only stamped blades.  There very well could be later blades out there, just without stamps.

Here you go unpolished Akihide [august 1945]

https://www.nihontoantiques.com/archive/g2.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

45 minutes ago, Klink said:

I was enjoying reading the Ohmura-study but now when I bring up the website I don't get the english translation option to click on.  I was going to quote the author but by paraphrasing I thought it said that facilities that were bombed had work in progress that were never finished. 

  

This is the English page for the main page: Ohmura Site.  Some of his pages aren't available in English and must be translated.  Some, when entering in Japanese, have a link to click at the bottom of the page for English Version.

[Klink]

Thanks Bruce.  For some reason I was on the Main Site and a window allowed for English Translation that appeared instantly and now no more.

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, Klink said:

a window allowed for English Translation

Might be your browser.  Are you using Microsoft Edge?  They give a pop-up window asking if you want to translate.  But like you say, sometimes it's not there.  However they have a symbol in the search window that, if clicked, brings up the translate pop-up:

[Klink]

Well thanks, you gave me a thought and so I searched for it and since I use Chrome it turns when your on the website to be translated you simply right click on your mouse and it brings up a Google Popup which has a Line that says, Translate to English.... and it worked.  So I'm back on the site!!!