Advice for new collectors from an old dog

[Rayhan]

For me a good sword is a sword that is most representative of that given Kaji or indeed that smith. If you are seeking Yamato, and Shikkake for example you would want something that is archetypal of the best known Shikkake examples we have in books and in hand to study or see. Now how you'd approach this is based on the level of information you have, this information will also be different for Tanto or Daito, etc. So after you have this information you apply it to the purchase process, however, this is where you will meet bad quality Shikkake and good quality Shikkake. You can still see certain elements of the archtype in bad quality steel, but you will also not get the real story of Shikkake. The question of buying quality is very much individual and based on having seen what good quality should look like. 

 

If you want diversity then please by all means, I have tried and I can tell you it's not possible. Its a never ending sea and you'll end up with a hodgepodge of blades some will be good, others ok and some bad but none will represent the length and breadth of Nihonto. 

 

I don't think the question of who are you collecting for is relevant, being a collector by its definition is personal. 

 

Again im not saying do this don't do that, im saying if you're new to this study and focus and go into this armed with a good budget and find your footing first.

[Rayhan]

17 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Rayhan, reading about your 15 Kongo swords etc etc, you obviously have the the finance to throw loads of money at the hobby.

 

The reality here, would say most would be lucky to throw $5000 at a first sword, if that. Thats a lot of money for an average dude, Rolex watch money for something that might just be a one off.

 

To me, this all getting over complicated for folks wanting to buy their first sword, maybe the last.

Please don't make this about me and what i have done, people asked what were the mistakes and I simply answered. I think if someone is coming into this new and they have 5k why not wait for a bit more, save more whilst studying, we do this for other parts of our lives, we save for school, we save for houses for cars for engagement rings for holidays, why not for you first and maybe last nihonto. While saving you're still learning. 

 

Also Alex you can imagine when letting go of those 15 swords the painful financial loss, so it was not a good feeling in any case, I lost swords and I lost money.

 

This is not overly complicated,  the message is the same as my hard lesson. Take time to study, study everything possible, meet with your community and see as much as you can, find mentors and finally when you believe you're ready jump in. All im saying. Super simple really.

[Alex A]

Im not making it about you, you already mentioned your purchases so i was replying with some reality.

 

 As said before, its a world of instant gratification. 

 

Not saying all people are that way, there are the sensible ones that appear to want to study a bit first, though from what i have seen, most just dive in.

 

The first buy is usually a curiosity/impulse buy, saving up more money is the last thing on their minds. To be in the frame of mind to want to save up for something better, one most first have experience, that includes good and bad experiences, learning what one likes etc.

 

You can tell folks all this advice until your blue in the face and it is good of you to care. though some will and some wont listen, the latter seeming the more common occurrence.

 

Personally, i think there is something special in many a cheap sword, something of real interest that makes them stand out. I think its too easy to become overly obsessed about staying on track with ones preferences, in a way it would take the fun out of it for me.

 

Mistakes, whatever, all part of the journey should they jump on board. Mistakes are opportunities to learn and grow (Marcus Aurelius)

 

We are all different though and all have our own ways, horses for courses.

 

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

I read your response very clearly, however, unless you have been granted the authority to answer for another member, I wasnt asking YOU anything. Maybe it wasn’t obvious.

It looks like the author is addressing questions as I write this. So lets see if HE would like to respond or not. Either way makes no difference to me. 

Well- fortunately I don't need your permission to express my opinion

It's clear from your response that you don't care about the possible reason at all, but rather are trying to open a new conflict with the author of the topic
For me, it's therefore this discussion closed

[Robert S]

Rayhan:  Wow, that's quite the journey!  Thanks so much for illuminating the goals you set, and the problems they led to - it's extremely useful.  I do think that those specific goals - looking to create a "complete" collection in some specific way, are perhaps unusual, so many others will make different mistakes.  In addition to your general point - study deeply before you start buying, I would add "study deeply things that you are particularly attracted to, and know why you are attracted to them.", as well as "identify your own goals clearly, and understand what they imply".  Based on that guidance, I think "save more, so that you can buy a really good example of what you love, and reduce the liklihood of losing money on it" is often, but not always, true.  Understanding whether not losing money is important to you, and whether more expensive blades will better meet your goals, is a critical part of the journey.  If the answer is "There's a $2,000 blade that just speaks to me, and I don't care how anyone else values it", then that's also a perfectly appropriate way to buy and cherish nihonto.  Every one of these blades is unique, has its own story that we will mostly never know, and was made by a master craftsman, so every one is worthy of being appreciated and cherished!

[Rivkin]

I think any koto you buy under X dollars will have something wrong with it. If X is 10k USD the choice is to accept what its missing: half of the original blade, half of the original condition, was problematic to begin with, etc..

Any blade teaches you something. If I would have all the money ever spent back, I would buy just a few good swords and avoid many mistakes. But I would not learn as much as I had.

[Gerry]

On 8/19/2025 at 3:36 PM, Rayhan said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, collectors of Nihonto. I am posting this today of my own volition and the following comments are of my own opinion. This post is for new collectors of Nihonto and other Samurai items. The comments and statements have no bearing on the opinions of others or the negativity that some other NMB members wish to emphasize. It is just me. If anyone takes issue with my statements, please message me on PM and don’t go at this thread like a buffet please.

 

As newcomers to Nihonto many of you will be wondering where and how to buy your first Nihonto. You will get advice from people you know and some you do not, you will be shown swords and armour and fittings for days that you think are coming from people of culture and solidarity, it is not.

 

I will speak today on swords and my collecting experience on swords, and I can only hope that my mistakes will never befall your journey.

Buying your first sword

 

When you finally go to buy the first sword please, do justice to yourselves. You all work so hard for your money, please do not waste it or make losses if you can avoid it.

 

There are small rules you can use to assist yourself:

On Nakago:

When is Suriage ok?

Suriage Nakago is ok when you are dealing with sword from the Heian to Nanbokucho period and never after. Do not be swayed by any means on swords that have been shortened after the Nanbokucho period as collectible items. They are not. There exist a great many swords in Ubu that should be looked at first.

When is Mumei ok?

Mumei blades are ok when we go from the Heian to Nanbokucho period and no later. Swords from the Muromachi period onwards should be Zaimei and no matter what anyone says there are so many available examples that you can find sure swords that meet this criteria.

On polish

Buy swords in good condition and polish, please respect your money.

On Koshirae

If your sword comes with Koshirae please make sure the fit is right. Look at the fitting and make sure they are of similar style, and they match, do not accept the mix and match Cadbury style.

On Papers

Buy swords with papers, do not buy papers. If you are presented with a group of 10 swords and 2 have papers look at those 2 first before you look at the others. Appreciate the effort of Papers and where swords sit in conjunction to the certification process. (NBTHK).

On grading

Upgrade your swords when you can.

 

On spending and budget

 

Go into this with an adequate amount of money. Later, you will appreciate selling your single sword to one buyer rather than selling 8 rust buckets to 8 rusty collectors.

 

Guys I am so tired of being ostracized and beat down on for trying to ask you to buy quality over fantasy. Just because it is a sword does not make it the sword. Do justice to yourselves, save, learn and buy. By doing this you will help educate others.

 

As new collectors I urge you to please do justice to yourselves and go forward with knowledge rather than emotion. It is easy for a select few to ruin it for the many.  

 

 I think Rayhan is well intentioned and accurate in his advice, with the main implicit aim of value preservation upon resale. I'd even hasten to add a few other criteria to his point; such as, if its a katana, then the nagasa should be over 27 inches, be of as graceful a shape as possible (i.e. not kanbun shinto), and even to be from the more "popular" schools like Gassan/Soshu/etc.

 

If there's no concern of recouping your cost when you sell, then you can buy any sword that tugs are your heartstrings.

[Alex A]

Buy keepers, in this day and age with issues with shipping, don't want to be buying stuff and having to ship a year later.

 

The pain of knowing that, no beginner will understand 

[Rayhan]

2 hours ago, Robert S said:

 If the answer is "There's a $2,000 blade that just speaks to me, and I don't care how anyone else values it", then that's also a perfectly appropriate way to buy and cherish nihonto.  Every one of these blades is unique, has its own story that we will mostly never know, and was made by a master craftsman, so every one is worthy of being appreciated and cherished!

So yeah, No. 

 

I do not agree with the dichotomy in this last statement. You can have a "Master Craftsman" but not at 2000 USD. You can hold a really battered and broken Kotetsu and say its 2000 but its not of his quality, might even be gimei right? So I will do a new post where we can do a small exercise and I hope to have your participation as the first commentor please. 

 

Masters are masters and then there is everything in between. 

 

 

[lonely panet]

 MY advice in life is

 

you learn faster from making mistakes then if you made none

[Rayhan]

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

 MY advice in life is

 

you learn faster from making mistakes then if you made none

I hope this is advice for only swords yes? 

[Mikaveli]

7 hours ago, Gerry said:

 be of as graceful a shape as possible (i.e. not kanbun shinto)

 

So that Kotetsu was a waste of money then... 😂

[Alex A]

If your talking about the real straight kind of Kanbun sugata blades with 0.5cm sori then i kind of understand the statement about not buying Kanbun. Saying that though, i remember Darcy saying one of his first blades was of that type and he liked the straighter blades at that time. Ive had one and did like it, some people really like them.

 

Not all blades made during that time were of that sugata, many just have typical sori.

 

On a side note and kind of back tracking. There are obviously many people with deep pockets. In the UK you would only have to to look at one certain dealer to realise there are folks with more money than sense. Earlier, i was talking about what i have seen with the sales on the forum and opinion formed by talking with folks here. I find for most folks there are financial boundaries. Lets face it, great examples are too expensive for many so become unobtainable. Hence why i think it seems Shinshinto and Gendai seem to have become more popular in recent years.

[Mikaveli]

55 minutes ago, Alex A said:

If your talking about the real straight kind of Kanbun sugata blades with 0.5cm sori then i kind of understand the statement about not buying Kanbun. Saying that though, i remember Darcy saying one of his first blades was of that type and he liked the straighter blades at that time. Ive had one and did like it, some people really like them.

 

Even then, it's entirely subjective. If someone likes the form of a straighter sword, that's fine - it's fashion, not skill.

 

Later shinshinto produced even straighter swords than Kanbun-era shinto (when kendo became more popular). A rule about "don't collect them" is frankly, nonsense. Just be aware of the demand (and therefore market value) for anything you buy.

 

Again, as above, if anyone would like to offload their out-of-fashion, not to be collected Kotetsu, I'll be happy to accept them. 😂

[Alex A]

Agree, Michael.

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think Rayhans advice that has been discussed is very good for high level sword collecting. Some wording he has used might be bit provocative and ticking people off. However the issue might be that there are different levels of collecting. To me it has seemed in recent threads that it is difficult for people of varying collecting levels see eye to eye. What is seen as a no go in high level collecting could be perfectly accessible sword in lower level of collecting.

 

For a brain teaser people can think 15 Kongōbyōe swords vs. Mumei Tokubetsu Jūyō Rai Kunitoshi. I know high level collectors would pick the TJ Rai Kunitoshi and I would choose 15 Kongōbyōe, it is just a matter what you feel is correct to your personal collection. Life would be boring if everyone would just want to buy the same swords.

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, lonely panet said:

 MY advice in life is

 

you learn faster from making mistakes then if you made none

Reminds me of this one: "Learn from the mistakes of others.  You don't have time, in life, to make them all yourself." Ha!  I think I keep trying to make them all myself!

[Mikaveli]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I think Rayhans advice that has been discussed is very good for high level sword collecting. Some wording he has used might be bit provocative and ticking people off. However the issue might be that there are different levels of collecting. To me it has seemed in recent threads that it is difficult for people of varying collecting levels see eye to eye. What is seen as a no go in high level collecting could be perfectly accessible sword in lower level of collecting.

 

For a brain teaser people can think 15 Kongōbyōe swords vs. Mumei Tokubetsu Jūyō Rai Kunitoshi. I know high level collectors would pick the TJ Rai Kunitoshi and I would choose 15 Kongōbyōe, it is just a matter what you feel is correct to your personal collection. Life would be boring if everyone would just want to buy the same swords.

 

There's some truth in that, but to draw from an analogy, consider the car collecting world. There are some, only interested in rare Ferraris, spending millions, and wouldn't even glance at say, a classic Japanese car.

 

For me, I appreciate a Ferrari 250 GTO, and a Mitsubishi GTO, with approximately the same level of interest. I wouldn't buy the Ferrari, because it's well outside of my price range.

 

My argument is, if you're interest isn't wider, perhaps a classic Mini, Lancia Stratos, MGB, Bugatti Veyron, Lotus Elan etc. you're not really a car guy, you'd be well, a snob.

 

That's not saying you have to like everything, but (as with Nihonto), there's different styles, eras, workmanship, showmanship, utility, technology, state of preservation and fame / prestige and ultimately, monetary value.

 

In both fields of collecting, people are well aware of the wallets required to collect in the different areas, but the disparaging/dismissive remarks I often see on this forum sometimes only serves to spoil someone's enjoyment of where they've chosen to collect.

 

Personally, I'm fortunate enough that Juyo blades are attainable - many can't afford that, many can afford much more. But whether you show me your Gunto or Sadamune, I appreciate them for what they are and enjoy people's knowledge and enthusiasm about their collections - and don't need any put downs.

[Rayhan]

Well, I think I and we have said as much as we're going to say here. I hope everyone has at least seen some positives and I wish everyone the best of luck, happiness and success in their collecting goals. For new collectors in Nihonto I hope the journey takes you to Japan and back and brings life long memories

[Gerry]

17 hours ago, Mikaveli said:

 

So that Kotetsu was a waste of money then... 😂

Hey, give me a Bizen Nagamitsu over a Kotetsu any day. 

[When Necessary]

13 hours ago, Mikaveli said:

 

There's some truth in that, but to draw from an analogy, consider the car collecting world. There are some, only interested in rare Ferraris, spending millions, and wouldn't even glance at say, a classic Japanese car.

 

For me, I appreciate a Ferrari 250 GTO, and a Mitsubishi GTO, with approximately the same level of interest. I wouldn't buy the Ferrari, because it's well outside of my price range.

 

My argument is, if you're interest isn't wider, perhaps a classic Mini, Lancia Stratos, MGB, Bugatti Veyron, Lotus Elan etc. you're not really a car guy, you'd be well, a snob.

 

That's not saying you have to like everything, but (as with Nihonto), there's different styles, eras, workmanship, showmanship, utility, technology, state of preservation and fame / prestige and ultimately, monetary value.

 

In both fields of collecting, people are well aware of the wallets required to collect in the different areas, but the disparaging/dismissive remarks I often see on this forum sometimes only serves to spoil someone's enjoyment of where they've chosen to collect.

 

Personally, I'm fortunate enough that Juyo blades are attainable - many can't afford that, many can afford much more. But whether you show me your Gunto or Sadamune, I appreciate them for what they are and enjoy people's knowledge and enthusiasm about their collections - and don't need any put downs.

Extremely well put, Michael.

 

This forum needs more like you.

You can own the best but don't look down upon those who, of necessity, collect more humble examples.

[Rayhan]

13 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Extremely well put, Michael.

 

This forum needs more like you.

You can own the best but don't look down upon those who, of necessity, collect more humble examples.

No one was looking down on anything or anyone. 

[Hokke]

7 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

No one was looking down on anything or anyone. 

Way to go TFB, what a short memory you have

 

“Especially the people here like @Hokke @Matsunoki @jdawg221 @jawob i think between you guys if you can take all the paperweights off the market and souley focus on those, we'd all have a clearer view of what's really out there.”

[Rayhan]

2 hours ago, Hokke said:

Way to go TFB, what a short memory you have

 

“Especially the people here like @Hokke @Matsunoki @jdawg221 @jawob i think between you guys if you can take all the paperweights off the market and souley focus on those, we'd all have a clearer view of what's really out there.”

Ah yes but there is no control to compare, have any of you spoken or posted about you collection? No? So your statement is clearly a personal feeling deep deep down...

[Hokke]

2 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Ah yes but there is no control to compare, have any of you spoken or posted about you collection? No? So your statement is clearly a personal feeling deep deep down...

Um no, TFB, you made the statement, I simply pointed out your poor memory for having forgotten it. The only thing deep. deep down is your contempt for anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. Describing nihonto purchases others have made or may make as "paperweights" is quite LITERALLY both looking down at someone AND something at the same time. Not to mention you accused a member of this forum for essentially being a thief.  But you know all this TFB, and you arent the least bit bothered by it, which makes you a "special" kind of.........person.

[Tsuku]

18 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Ah yes but there is no control to compare, have any of you spoken or posted about you collection? No? So your statement is clearly a personal feeling deep deep down...

Some people choose to share their collections and others do not. Everyone has their own reasons for making that choice. I don’t think it’s appropriate for anyone else to judge that.

 

Separately, I think it is very natural to wonder “where do I fit in the collecting world.” The truth is that there is almost always a bigger fish. Collecting (anything) gets easier when you make your peace with that.

[Rayhan]

4 minutes ago, Tsuku said:

Some people choose to share their collections and others do not. Everyone has their own reasons for making that choice. I don’t think it’s appropriate for anyone else to judge that.

 

Separately, I think it is very natural to wonder “where do I fit in the collecting world.” The truth is that there is almost always a bigger fish. Collecting (anything) gets easier when you make your peace with that.

Hokke was assuming I had judged their collection and others, impossible to do if they haven't shown them. Not sure why you're shooting from the hip @Tsuku

 

The OP was never about anything you're both going on about, how about we let the post rest hm?

[sabiji]

I'll try again, because the last few posts completely missed the point.

 

As a complete beginner, I would think: what's going on here?

 

The problem is that many “old hands” seem to have forgotten their own beginnings.

 

And I can only speak for myself: the problem wasn't the swords I bought when I was starting out. The problem was that I got five different opinions from five “old hands.”

 

Doesn't anyone remember the feeling of going to someone who obviously knew what they were talking about and anxiously awaiting their judgment?

 

And that's because

- you were hardly able to assess the quality of your new acquisition yourself,

- and you were just as unable to gauge the quality of the judgments.

 

A negative judgment could destroy everything in seconds and effectively render a promising new acquisition worthless to you.

 

Even in my early days at the NBTHK-EB, I observed how members or guests would quietly and secretly take an object to Micha Hagenbusch. Then there were two options: either they would return just as quietly and secretly with a grim expression on their faces and let the piece disappear into their bags. Or they would proudly carry it in front of them and others would then be “allowed” to admire it too.

 

And I experienced the same thing! An old friend warned me during my first participation (I don't know) 25 years ago(?) to take certain blades with me.

 

Instead, he recommended that I take a katana with me that

- dated from the Kanbun period,

- was suriage but still bore his signature,

- had already lost some of its material,

- and had no paper.

 

In other words, the worst possible choice imaginable.

 

However, the katana had an en suite koshirae with decorative fittings made of solid silver, typical of the late Edo period. So I tried to focus my questions on the mounting.

 

But Micha Hagenbusch was not interested in the mounting at all. He pulled out the blade, took a quick look at it, removed the tsuka in a matter of seconds, and asked me several times, “...what do you have against the blade, what do you have against the blade??”

 

Very quickly, we were surrounded by curious onlookers, and I was extremely embarrassed!

 

I couldn't come up with a reasonable answer, not with my level of knowledge at the time.

 

But it was a key experience that made me swear to myself that I had to change something! That I had to get to the point where I could form my own useful opinion. The opportunity to see good blades at the meetings was one of the important steps.

 

Incidentally, I already had quite a few books before that. But I often imagined that what I found in the books looked exactly like what I thought I saw on my blades.

 

But it was only when I started studying real blades that I realized there was a world of difference between what I was holding in my hand and what I had at home.

 

That's why books are certainly useful, and they are the best support for the real study of blades in your hand. But they cannot replace practice.

 

And part of practice is having someone experienced to stand by your side. Otherwise, you just stare at the blade like an autistic person. You see a lot and yet nothing. You have to be able to name what you see, but also what you don't see, otherwise you can't be corrected, etc...

 

That was a fundamental insight, and yet many years of learning followed. And it continues to this day. I have no idea what my opinion will be in 10 years.

 

But that's just my story, which I can tell a newcomer here.

 

And a newcomer can draw conclusions from it. But they MUST take the initiative and ask questions. They must also be prepared to “let their guard down.” There's no shame in being completely wrong about a kantei.

 

Micha Hagenbusch always tried to understand why someone gave a certain wrong opinion. And I learned a lot from his corrections. Unfortunately, this type of Kantei was not very popular. Many wanted to know in advance what to expect so they could prepare themselves accordingly. Which is understandable.

 

There are many ways!

 

For me, knowledge is still the most important thing. Acquiring a particular piece is more of a logical side effect.

 

The only problem is that I find it incredibly difficult to acquire anything the longer I continue on my path.

 

That's why owning things is no longer a priority for me.

 

But luckily, not everyone thinks that way, because that would be a real disaster for me!

 

As I said, there are many paths!

[Mikaveli]

48 minutes ago, sabiji said:

Instead, he recommended that I take a katana with me that

- dated from the Kanbun period,

- was suriage but still bore his signature,

- had already lost some of its material,

- and had no paper.

 

In other words, the worst possible choice imaginable.

 

 

Remember guys, no put downs, but if your sword is unpapered, from the Kanbun period or a shinto suriage, it's the worst thing imaginable... 🤦‍♂️

 

Shallow sori? Inelegant! Paid less than $2k, clumsy apprentice smith with no skill. Mino den, yikes!

 

So, with that in mind. I'm raising the bar! If you don't own one of the 110 national treasures, your sword is just a junk paperweight. 🙈 But hey, at least we're all the same. 🤣

[Alex A]

Reading all this. all i am seeing is folks arguing over different points of view.

 

Which to sum up for me, let folks earn their own point of view and stop it with all the bickering.

 

If they ask, advise, if not leave them to it.