Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?

[Rivkin]

"What is a great blade" and "does it match the valuation" is yet another big question, and I would be in the camp "often it does not".

I've seen a few Awataguchi Kuniyasu which were as rough as many Muromachi blades. Kanemitsu in MFA is one of the most boring blades I've ever seen. Many zaimei Rai Kunitoshi which have neither the famously consistent tight jigane, nor is nioiguchi particularly stable, nor are frankly very impressive overall.

 

There are quite a few shinto smiths who produced very impressive work, but shinto valuation is very black and white, like 10 people being the top and bottom is the "rest".

There were people in 1710s who never had a chance to make a lot of blades because of the economics, I look at their blades and its absolutely top tier - but there are literally a handful of blades to their name and a single line in meikan. Zaimei inferior work by Naotane, which we can justify on the basis that he needed a lot of experimentation, and a lot of it was... experimentation quality, will not come even close. But shinto blade will be 4k and Naotane 30k.

 

There is a dozen of Muromachi smiths whom I would value significantly but their names and blade valuations remain semi-obscured. I had to check the records now myself, but Bungo Munekage produced some impressive stuff. Heianjo smiths, of whom Yoshihiro's hitatsura probably the only thing which will have decent level valuation.

By comparison there are tons of Juyo which are Juyo because other similar blades have been Juyo before.

Aoe is a great school, but late Kamakura Aoe Juyo with rough chirimen, not particularly accented hamon can look rather humble next to TH Oei Bizen.

 

Subjectively to me 90% of TJ are great blades, and it goes down to probably 30% at Juyo, but if it comes down to artistry there are very poor valued schools which are impressive.

Usually people just don't discern quality when they say this, so it is not a respected statement, but there are quite a few smiths who made relatively few blades, are very obscure, but are high level.

 

[Scogg]

11 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

There are no Rembrants for 8k or 10k. 

 

Look if you need to pass criticism because someone is urging people, especially new comer to look deeply before making purchases, use a better angle please. 

But you're not simply urging people to look deeply before making a purchase.

You're saying that newcomers should strive to meet a criteria, defined by you, for what makes a "good" first purchase, also defined by you.

This field is way to nuanced to make such sweeping claims about how much someone else should spend.
-Sam
 

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Rivkin said:

"What is a great blade" and "does it match the valuation" is yet another big question, and I would be in the camp "often it does not".

I've seen a few Awataguchi Kuniyasu which were as rough as many Muromachi blades. Kanemitsu in MFA is one of the most boring blades I've ever seen. Many zaimei Rai Kunitoshi which have neither the famously consistent tight jigane, nor is nioiguchi particularly stable, nor are frankly very impressive overall.

 

There are quite a few shinto smiths who produced very impressive work, but shinto valuation is very black and white, like 10 people being the top and bottom is the "rest".

There were people in 1710s who never had a chance to make a lot of blades because of the economics, I look at their blades and its absolutely top tier - but there are literally a handful of blades to their name and a single line in meikan. Zaimei inferior work by Naotane, which we can justify on the basis that he needed a lot of experimentation, and a lot of it was... experimentation quality, will not come even close. But shinto blade will be 4k and Naotane 30k.

 

There is a dozen of Muromachi smiths whom I would value significantly but their names and blade valuations remain semi-obscured. I had to check the records now myself, but Bungo Munekage produced some impressive stuff. Heianjo smiths, of whom Yoshihiro's hitatsura probably the only thing which will have decent level valuation.

By comparison there are tons of Juyo which are Juyo because other similar blades have been Juyo before.

Aoe is a great school, but late Kamakura Aoe Juyo with rough chirimen, not particularly accented hamon can look rather humble next to TH Oei Bizen.

 

Subjectively to me 90% of TJ are great blades, and it goes down to probably 30% at Juyo, but if it comes down to artistry there are very poor valued schools which are impressive.

Usually people just don't discern quality when they say this, so it is not a respected statement, but there are quite a few smiths who made relatively few blades, are very obscure, but are high level.

 

The post is on saving to and learning about nihonto before making educational purchases. What impresses you or me that's a tea and sandwiches conversation we all love to have but isn't what im getting at.

[Rayhan]

Just now, Scogg said:

But you're not simply urging people to look deeply before making a purchase.

You're saying that newcomers should strive to meet a criteria, defined by you, for what makes a "good" first purchase, also defined by you.

This field is way to nuanced to make such sweeping claims about how much someone else should spend.
-Sam
 

Im not defining anything by me, at all, it how you see my comments and deeply something is saying he is telling me what to do. Nope im telling you how it is as someone who has been through this before. I have no idea how long you've been collecting but how you interpret a collectors lessons is up to you entirely. Others may interpret it differently. 

[Rawa]

31 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

The post is on saving to and learning about nihonto before making educational purchases. What impresses you or me that's a tea and sandwiches conversation we all love to have but isn't what im getting at.

You dont have to save to make educational purchase. It went from saving to investing quite quick. At least peps go for some assets diversification and don't put all money into old iron.

[Rayhan]

Just now, Rawa said:

You dont have to save to make educational purchase. It went from saving to investing quite quick. At least peps go for some assets diversification and don't put all money into old iron.

Investing? Where, the only mention of Investing was Investing time. And the fact you call it old iron, why are you here again?

[Rawa]

6 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Investing? Where, the only mention of Investing was Investing time. And the fact you call it old iron, why are you here again?

It wasn't towards you specifically. Everyone have their different reasons to collect afterall.

[Brano]

1 hour ago, jawob said:

Which means that a collector is financially taking more of a risk with a $12k blade vs $4k

If you buy one blade for 4k then almost certainly yes - if we estimate the absolute loss in case of need to sell
But then is it better not to buy anything - or not?

If you buy 3 blades for 4k each - then probably not

 

We all have our own preferences for buying and it is always our decision and our responsibility

 

Personally I think Rayhan means it in good faith, as most people who have gone some way in collecting nihonto

My personal view on the matter is that if you spend say 20k for 8 blades over time, you will do better if you buy 2 blades for 10k
You will spend the same
It is highly likely that the blades will be more metallurgically valuable
If you need to sell - then you are looking for 2 buyers instead of 8
...
I will try to put it another way
If you mix your blades among 1,000 others similar - can you recognize yours?
If yes - then it is unique and if it is unique in a positive way, then the sale will be easier

If no - then you have something that is on the market in the number of several thousand pieces
To be clear - I do not want to lecture anyone
Just presenting my view

 

The only thing that is important - educate yourself regardless of what you want to buy
If you can recognize what a metallurgically great blade can look like (if that is what you are actually interested in), then you will be able to better decide what compromise is acceptable to you

We all collect at some level of compromise

[Hoshi]

Hello,

 

This is becoming a bit of a murky conversation. This often happens, collectors operate at different segments, value different things, and operate under different constrains, financial or otherwise. 

 

Everyone likes a collection that tells a story. It’s a human thing, we are storyteller’s. I think this is the most important, there should be an engaging Gestalt emerging over time. And It’s as much a story about oneself and the story about the object themselves. 
 

Back to segments. 
 

I don’t think its right to say one should save X before buying etc. I think it’s very reasonable to begin with a humble blade that is at the entry level. Just to feel if you enjoy being a custodian. There is an emotional experience to be had there, and I think ownership is important. Does that mean we should keep doing that? I don’t think so either. There is a much richer personal journey ahead, a kind of quote-unquote Cursus Honorum or honorable passion track where you visit new heights year after year.  
 

What matters is the speed at which one learns. And there is an internal component to this, learning what one likes, because preferences change, especially at the beginning where it evolves fast after this first blade. The good news is that it stabilizes also after some time. One day, you find « your thing » and this can be like Jussi’s enamored state with large war swords from turbulent period of history. It can be General Gendaito with special issued blades and family Kamon. Tastes are also shaped by constrains, why would you allow your brain to form attachment to things that are forever out of reach? If you want to collect only Osafune Mitsutada - and there is someone famous  who did just that in modern times, emulating Oda Nobunaga - it makes no sense if you can’t reasonably afford it after a few years. It’s not even worth day-dreaming about it.
 

Attachment is the cause of suffering as they say. Our preferences are shaped in part by our economic opportunities, and this is psychologically healthy. But it’s also important not to let your attachment to a particular segment make you lose sight of reality. That’s cognitive dissonance. It’s an illusion, and it’ll harm you on the path of learning, a great deal. 
 

« Quality is relative »

 

« Muromachi Sukesada can be just as high quality as top Bizen » 

« I’ve seen really good Muromachi Mino that are better than top level Soshu  » 

 

You can be Sukesada collector. There is merit in that. It can tell a great story, but don’t be under any illusion with regards to its standing within the epic historical arc of Nihonto. This is why I like Jussi’s approach. He’s humble, he recognizes that what he’s after is unorthodox and not quality dependent, he’s cognizant of his emotional response, and he longs for the fearsome Odachi and O-Nagamaki clashing during the height of the Sengoku Jidai. The more rustic from overlooked provinces, the better. 

 

Back to learning. If you can reasonably do it financially, it’s worth going up the Cursus Honorum. Take progressively bigger risks, see how that works out. Try to identify a good Koto Tokuho sword, and try your luck at passing a blade to Juyo.  if you succeed you’ll have absorbed all the losses you might have taken when reselling the the 2-3 smaller pieces that did not make it, and when faced with failure you might learn something important. After that, you should sell some swords, because going through the pain of selling is healthy and important. With that first Juyo firmly in hand, you have contributed to the field is your own small but significantly way, making this sword and its scholarly commentary published for all adepts of the Cursus Honorum who diligently purchase the Zufu volumes and track passes over the years. The mysterious travelers of the Cursus Honorum will notice, and soon you might find yourself part of that community that often visits Japan around the time of the DTI. Provided you're a good human, you’ll be invited to private events that will open your eyes wide in awe, hold onto your hands some of the most significant masterworks ever produced, and find that connection to the sublime. And once you experience it you will remember it forever, and you will be lastingly changed.
 

This was the path Darcy threaded and relentlessly tried to teach to those that would listen. 
 

A path traveled by legends such as Paul Davidson, Walter Compton, and many others, still living, whose names are to be discovered along the path.
 

And on that path there are a lot of opportunities for progression. Learn with Tanobe-sensei, discover lost provenance, pass items to Tokuju, and much more. You will learn to navigate another culture and to deeply respect it, and this is perhaps one of most enriching aspects.

At the highest levels, the peak of the peak, you will encounter a rarified few that operate at the level of these Ethereal Meito. There, it’s decades of relationship building to create the bonds of trust, deep respect, and commitment required. Even if you have the financial means - which is a rarity in itself - earning the access is an extraordinary feat. At this level, it’s not about “recouping your money” anymore. These blades are priceless treasures and the demand is there no matter what. It will appreciate just as blue chip art. You are safe, there will always be a buyer. The top 10% of Tokuju are such culturally significant masterworks that they hedge themselves from economic downturns. But at this level paradoxically money becomes less important, and choosing who the next custodian will be becomes a primary concern. It’s a responsibility, money comes and go, but such historical treasures call for the most capable and worthy guardians. It is like choosing an heir to the empire. 
 

That’s the peak. 

 

By the time you reach it, you'll be old. And you might die pretty soon. The Chairman and majority shareholder of Token Corp passed away last month at 77 years old, and he left us a beautiful museum in Nagoya that will educate generations to come. What a legend. RIP, Kouda-sama. Your legacy will endure.  
 

To sum up, yes - measure your risk, buy small at first. Play in a field where you can play by virtue of your prospective economic condition. Nothing wrong with that at all, but do not succumb to delusions and cognitive dissonance. You’ll induce yourself and others in error. If you have the financial means, don't get suck accumulating one hundred medium/low grade swords. Seek progression up the ladder of both quality and knowledge, which go hand in hand inevitably.   
 

Don’t peddle green papers. Don’t hurt others. Do no harm. Don't be evil. Learn what you like and chart your path. That's the most important. 
 

The Cursus Honorum is optional. 
 

But it sure is a beautiful journey. 

 

best,

 

Hoshi 

[George KN]

1 hour ago, Rayhan said:

There are no Rembrants for 8k or 10k

Is this thread really revolving around advising people spending this much on their first purchase?? 

I mean I know it's an expensive field of interest, and a lot of "good" blades are easily worth that much, but that's a LOT of money for most people... 

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

"What is a great blade" and "does it match the valuation" is yet another big question, and I would be in the camp "often it does not".

I've seen a few Awataguchi Kuniyasu which were as rough as many Muromachi blades. Kanemitsu in MFA is one of the most boring blades I've ever seen. Many zaimei Rai Kunitoshi which have neither the famously consistent tight jigane, nor is nioiguchi particularly stable, nor are frankly very impressive overall.

 

 

 

You see - and my experience with Rai Kunitoshi is on the complete opposite spectrum
It was a mumei katana offered by Seikodo and then by Fred Weissberg on nihonto.com and in my eyes it was one of the best blades I have ever seen

I totally understand what you mean - a big name doesn't guarantee a great blade

You are right
It depends on what you find

[Rawa]

16 minutes ago, Hoshi said:

Hello,

 

This is becoming a bit of a murky conversation. This often happens, collectors operate at different segments, value different things, and operate under different constrains, financial or otherwise. 

 

Everyone likes a collection that tells a story. It’s a human thing, we are storyteller’s. I think this is the most important, there there should be an engaging Gestalt emerging over time. And It’s as much a story about oneself and the story about the object themselves. 
 

Back to segments. 
 

I don’t think its right to say one should save X before buying etc. I think it’s very reasonable to begin with a humble blade that is at the entry level. Just to feel if you enjoy being a custodian. There is an emotional experience to be had there, and I think ownership is important. 
 

Does that mean we should keep doing that? I don’t think so either. There is a much richer personal journey ahead, a kind of quote unquote Cursus Honorum or honorable passion track where you level up to new heights. 
 

What matters is the speed at which one learns. And there is an internal component to this, learning what one likes, because preferences change, especially at the beginning where it evolves fast after this first blade.

 

The good news is that it stabilizes also after some time. One day, you find « your thing » and this can be like Jussi’s enamored state with large war swords from turbulent period of history. It can be General Gendaito with special issued blades and family Kamon. Tastes are also shaped by constrains, why would you allow your brain to form attachment to things that are forever out of reach? If you want to collect only Osafune Mitsutada - and there is someone famous  who did just that in modern times, emulating Oda Nobunaga - it makes no sense if you can’t reasonably afford it after a few years. It’s not even worth day-dreaming about it.
 

Attachment is the cause of suffering as they say. Our preferences are shaped in part by our economic opportunities, and this is psychologically healthy. 
 

But it’s also important not to let your attachment to a particular segment make you lose sight of reality. That’s cognitive dissonance. It’s an illusion, and it’ll harm you on the path of learning, a great deal. 
 

« Quality is relative »

 

« Muromachi Sukesada can be just as high quality as top Bizen » 

« I’ve seen really good Muromachi Mino that are better than top level Soshu  » 

 

You can be Sukesada collector. There is merit in that. It can tell a great story, but don’t be under any illusion with regards to its standing within the epic historical arc of Nihonto. 
 

This is why I like Jussi’s approach. He’s humble, he recognizes that what he’s after is unorthodox and not quality dependent, he’s cognizant of his emotional response, and he longs for the fearsome Odachi and O-Nagamaki clashing during the height of the Sengoku Jidai. The more rustic from overlooked provinces, the better. 

 

Back to learning. If you can reasonably do it financially, it’s worth going up the Cursus Honorum. Take progressively bigger risks, see how that works out. Try to identify a good Koto Tokuho sword, and try your luck at passing a blade to Juyo. 
 

if you succeed you’ll have absorbed all the losses you might have taken when reselling the 2-3 beginner smaller pieces. And going through the pain of selling is healthy and important. With that first Juyo firmly in hand, you have contributed to the field is your own small but significantly way, making this sword and its scholarly commentary published for all adepts of the Cursus Honorum who diligently purchase the Zufu volumes and track passes over the years.
 

We’ll notice, and soon you might find yourself part of that community that often visits Japan around the time of the DTI. You’ll be invited to private events that will open your eyes wide in awe, hold onto your hands some of the most significant masterworks ever produced, and find that connection to the sublime. And once you experience it you will remember it forever, and you will be lastingly changed.
 

This was the path Darcy threaded and relentlessly tried to teach to those that would listen. 
 

Legends such as Hans Eichbaum, Paul Davidson, Walter Compton, and many others whose names are to be discovered along the path.
 

And on that path there are a lot of opportunities for progression. Learn with Tanobe-sensei, discover lost provenance, pass items to Tokuju, and much more. You will learn to navigate another culture and to deeply respect it, and this is perhaps one of most enriching aspects.

At the highest levels, the peak of the peak, you will encounter whales that operate at the level of these Ethereal Meito. There, it’s decades of relationship building. Bonds of trust, deep respect, and commitment. Even if you have the financial means - which is a rarity in itself - earning the access is an extraordinary feat. At this level, it’s not about “recouping your money” anymore. These blades are priceless treasures and the demand is there no matter what. It will appreciate just as blue chip art. You are safe, there will always be a buyer. The top 10% of Tokuju are such culturally significant masterworks that they hedge themselves from economic downturns. But at this level paradoxically money becomes less important, and choosing who the next custodian will be becomes a primary concern. It’s a responsibility, money comes and go, but such historical treasures call for the most capable and worthy guardians. It is like choosing an heir to the empire. 
 

That’s it, that’s the peak. 
 

But then you die not too far after, because by that time you’re old and frail. The Owner of Token Corp passed away last month at 77 years old, and he left us a beautiful museum in Nagoya that will educate generations to come. What a legend. RIP, Kouda-sama. 
 

To sum up, yes - measure your risk, buy small at first. Play in a field where you can play by virtue of your economic condition. Nothing wrong with that at all, but do not succumb to delusions and cognitive dissonance. You’ll induce yourself and others in error. If you have the financial means, don't get suck accumulating one hundred medium/low grade swords. Seek progression up the ladder.  
 

Don’t peddle green papers. Don’t hurt others. Do no harm. Don't be evil. Learn what you like and chart your path. That's the most important. 
 

The Cursus Honorum is optional. 
 

But it sure is one beautiful journey. 

 

best,

 

Hoshi 

I totally agree. In the end we all meeting in an afterlife. But don't forget about those who we leaving and will have to deal with results of our collecting.

[Scogg]

Hoshi has summed up my feelings about the topic in one comment better than I could in a few 
 

 

[Robert S]

3 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Ok please tell me what would anyone say to them. Just because you cannot buy now doesn't mean you will never be able to one day. And if they are less fortunate financially does that mean they cannot go to the same local meetings as me or anyone else, to the same museum and hang in the same community and still see good swords and see what can be defined as quality conditions? Come on. That is a question we all answer for ourselves. You know why, when that educated individual spots a gem and says nothing to anyone and quietly buys the gem for themselves they will be the winners. I'm saying learn and save and learn more and save and then maybe you have 8k and you walk past a gem and buy it for 4k and it goes Tokubetsu hozon after a polish and now you have definitely made up, depending on what you found. If you have 8k and you buy something for 900 because it spoke to you and you then never see that 900 back...you now have 7100 left and that's it. You're literally learning to go backwards. Congratulations. 

That's a lot of conditional events.  You could equally buy the blade, polish it, send it in for TH, and it doesn't pass.  Now you're out way more than with the $900 blade.  My philosophy is to be willing to lose the entire amount you spend, either because it doesn't hold value, or because you love it so much that you'll never sell it, and good luck to your estate!

[Rayhan]

1 hour ago, George KN said:

Is this thread really revolving around advising people spending this much on their first purchase?? 

I mean I know it's an expensive field of interest, and a lot of "good" blades are easily worth that much, but that's a LOT of money for most people... 

It is a lot of money for anyone. But there are time factors involved as Hoshi said, how fast we get there in learning and budget are not parallel roads. @Hoshi thank you for your post, it was a nostalgic reminder. I am advising to save and learn but if you look at the current market and what you can get at 8K to 10K it is a very nice starting pool. And it depends on what you go for, but i am speaking of the whole package and at this range it is achievable and you can have something to spend years discovering without andy road blocks. 

 

1 hour ago, Rawa said:

I totally agree. In the end we all meeting in an afterlife. But don't forget about those who we leaving and will have to deal with results of our collecting.

This is also a huge consideration. I would want them to be items sold with fondness and memory, not a burden to sell in my twilight years or inherited burdens. Fact is for your successors the swords came to them at zero, they are not thinking how much is the recovery, they sell your 10K sword for close to 10K in their minds they were left a fortune, they have no idea the road it went through to get to you, unless they too have the nihonto bug and were along for the journey. 

 

1 hour ago, Brano said:

You see - and my experience with Rai Kunitoshi is on the complete opposite spectrum
It was a mumei katana offered by Seikodo and then by Fred Weissberg on nihonto.com and in my eyes it was one of the best blades I have ever seen

I totally understand what you mean - a big name doesn't guarantee a great blade

You are right
It depends on what you find

Yes, Brano also finds most of my blades boring lol as he told me twice now 

 

 

[Rayhan]

Just now, Robert S said:

That's a lot of conditional events.  You could equally buy the blade, polish it, send it in for TH, and it doesn't pass.  Now you're out way more than with the $900 blade.  My philosophy is to be willing to lose the entire amount you spend, either because it doesn't hold value, or because you love it so much that you'll never sell it, and good luck to your estate!

Well, if you know what you are buying i'm not sure that can be possible? I mean really talking to people, getting opinions from trusted fellow collectors and education, I have seen and heard so many success stories, personal wins. Isn't that what you see in Juyo sessions, few dozen successful wins, THozon many hundred of successful wins, every year. It happens constantly just navigating that curve is a learning process. 

[Robert S]

1 minute ago, Rayhan said:

Well, if you know what you are buying i'm not sure that can be possible? I mean really talking to people, getting opinions from trusted fellow collectors and education, I have seen and heard so many success stories, personal wins. Isn't that what you see in Juyo sessions, few dozen successful wins, THozon many hundred of successful wins, every year. It happens constantly just navigating that curve is a learning process. 

I agree that it's entirely possible that things go as you suggest.  But certainly at the Juyo level there seems to be a lot of uncertainty, depending on the session, the other swords presented, etc.  TH may be less unpredictable, but even there.  If it was completely predictable that would be an arbitrage, in financial terms - zero risk - and I don't believe that.  Anyhow, I like low cost nihonto.  For me, they're more of an adventure than a papered, signed blade.

[jawob]

Being new to nihonto this has been an interesting conversation. I'm not new to collecting and understand the nuances and complexities. I do have a hobby budget, which involves selling to fund the next purchase. Unfortunately, that well spring has a budget. Sometimes that hobby fund has to go to real life things like a bathroom renovation that is overdue. Under the best of circumstances if I was to buy only $10k + for nihonto, I would have at most 2 or 3 examples at one time. That might be a very smart decision, as I don't want a large collection but it would be very limiting. I mentioned liquidity earlier, that would be a major consideration, while I could be wrong, I have a sense selling a lower tier item would be a lot easier. I guess the best I can do is buy the best within my budget

[Rivkin]

6 hours ago, Rayhan said:

The post is on saving to and learning about nihonto before making educational purchases. What impresses you or me that's a tea and sandwiches conversation we all love to have but isn't what im getting at.

And if someone says - ok, without saving at 5-10k you actually can buy a first tier shinshinto blade, but mumei, I guess you'll take a significant issue with that. What price range to strive for, when, how, is directly linked to how we perceive the financial value versus art versus collectible.

Which is however different in different cultures. As I hinted in another thread, minus the diplomatic nicities, the first few times I dealt with Russian, Chinese a few other collector communities  I felt "what an awful low class behavior, price point reference as the basis of all decisions and flaunting it in the open", o-la-la.

Then I learned how it works in a number of situations, Surprisingly Well as long as participants agree to use this metric, and it can be vastly more efficient compared to my approach, certainly more "objective" and metric based.

But I would not adapt this culture, as it is not mine, I am not very well skilled in it, and what I grew up in or adopted on my own works ok for me and my purposes.

 

For me, second generation Sukesada is more talented and interesting smith than Kagemitsu. Buying it instead of saving up for signed Kagemitsu daito - super. Mumei Kiyomaro at 15k usd or mumei Naotane at 6 can be vastly more interesting, educational and enjoyable blades than 80% of Juyo at 30-60. Its a Rembrandt at 15k... with significant collectible-vise detriments.

[Rivkin]

2 hours ago, Brano said:

You see - and my experience with Rai Kunitoshi is on the complete opposite spectrum
It was a mumei katana offered by Seikodo and then by Fred Weissberg on nihonto.com and in my eyes it was one of the best blades I have ever seen

 

Mumei! I feel a lot of Hasebe, Kunitoshi, Nobukuni get this additional "zaimei" bonus points at Juyo, while mumei has to work extra hard getting there. A lot of Hasebe Juyo zaimei I would not care in the least about.

[Rivkin]

3 hours ago, Hoshi said:

The mysterious travelers of the Cursus Honorum will notice, and soon you might find yourself part of that community that often visits Japan around the time of the DTI.

Interesting how the world changed. Not long ago a "dreamy recollection" involved serving with Hemingway, arguing with Picasso or having a tea with Annunzio.

Today its meeting dealers at a trade event.

[When Necessary]

Personally, I've never bought anything for its mei or papers, only because I liked it a lot and could afford it at that time. I even knowingly bought a gimei tanto and I still love studying its wealth of activity. 

Frankly, I don't think nor care about the next generation; I will never have children and will not leave anything behind for either dealers or museums (I have far more antiques than just swords). Each item in my various collections can take their chances in the world, just as they did before I purchased them. I'll be dead and no longer concerned.

No doubt a highly unpopular opinion but I'm far from popular on this forum anyway and have no friends here to lose. (So spare me your lectures about 'custodianship'.)

 

As to the subject of this thread, I think one relative point which has not yet been made is the diminishing availability of good starter pieces for beginners. In the late 40s to early 70s, bring back swords were everywhere, particularly in the US. Prices were low, quality was potentially very good and nothing had been 'tinkered' around with yet. This, plus the fact Nihonto collecting for the lower-income individual was an untapped market, led to an abundance of opportunities to amass a very decent collection in a relatively short period of time and without expending a fortune to do so. Knowledge subsequently blossomed from the efforts of such early collectors as John Yumoto in the US and Ron Gregory in the UK.

 

Contrast that with today. New, young collectors have a whole (usually utterly ludicrous) folklore regarding Japanese swords which lures them in and then an ocean of cheap Chinese knockoffs to negotiate before deciding, finally, that only the real thing will do. They are then  faced with either low level shysters like the 'Frankenstein Monkey' or serious dealers charging serious money. No wonder then that they often forgo saving for an item whose worth will only become truly apparent after years of study for the quick-fix of an instant purchase based on whatever limited knowledge they have thus far managed to accrue .

There's no actual taboo on saving for something - it's simply human nature to be impatient, a failing which, admittedly, has been greatly exacerbated by our greedy, 'must have it yesterday' consumer society.

[Matsunoki]

11 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Any item that is sold with the right elements in place is a better buy than any low tier item.

This simply does not make any sense and ignores the reality of the market. In what way is it a better buy? 
 

[Brian]

Guys,
I NEED you all to dial it back, and respect each other's opinions. I see too much antagonism in this thread, and really don't want to lock it.
I've been in hospital for 2 days, and likely going back again for a bit, so can't be worrying about you guys at each other's throats. Just respect each other's opinions and act like adults.
We've had some excellent intellectual discussion lately, so let's not ruin that, and I can't worry about babysitting this thread.
Please respect and listen to the moderators, they have my permission to do anything necessary.
I'd appreciate some respect for each other's opinions and way of collecting.

[Gakusee]

18 minutes ago, Brian said:

Guys,
I NEED you all to dial it back, and respect each other's opinions. I see too much antagonism in this thread, and really don't want to lock it.
I've been in hospital for 2 days, and likely going back again for a bit, so can't be worrying about you guys at each other's throats. Just respect each other's opinions and act like adults.
We've had some excellent intellectual discussion lately, so let's not ruin that, and I can't worry about babysitting this thread.
Please respect and listen to the moderators, they have my permission to do anything necessary.
I'd appreciate some respect for each other's opinions and way of collecting.

 

Hope that you feel better soon and that it is nothing too serious. 
 

And as to this thread, the opinions have been stridently stated, arguments passionately made pro and con, and it is clear that one approach whilst well-intended might not fit everyone. Digging one’s heels in is usually counterproductive and I echo we ought to respect each other’s views and positions. 

[Matsunoki]

@Brian

My apologies Brian.

Sorry to hear you are poorly. Wishing you speedy improvement and better times ahead.

[Rayhan]

@Brian I am sorry to hear you are not well, keep strong and wishing you swift recovery ahead. Remember you said you need to get better so we can finally meet in Japan in the next few years so get better soon. How else will you put a face to the PIA on your NMB? Get well soon!

[Rayhan]

6 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

This simply does not make any sense and ignores the reality of the market. In what way is it a better buy? 
 

Hey @Matsunoki , look at this point I need to just concede that you feel my advice and my experience has no standing in your orbit so let us just agree to disagree, handshake and move on. but thank you for the opposing opinion because that is so important to make a measured discussion. 

 

13 hours ago, Rivkin said:

And if someone says - ok, without saving at 5-10k you actually can buy a first tier shinshinto blade, but mumei, I guess you'll take a significant issue with that. What price range to strive for, when, how, is directly linked to how we perceive the financial value versus art versus collectible.

Which is however different in different cultures. As I hinted in another thread, minus the diplomatic nicities, the first few times I dealt with Russian, Chinese a few other collector communities  I felt "what an awful low class behavior, price point reference as the basis of all decisions and flaunting it in the open", o-la-la.

Then I learned how it works in a number of situations, Surprisingly Well as long as participants agree to use this metric, and it can be vastly more efficient compared to my approach, certainly more "objective" and metric based.

But I would not adapt this culture, as it is not mine, I am not very well skilled in it, and what I grew up in or adopted on my own works ok for me and my purposes.

 

For me, second generation Sukesada is more talented and interesting smith than Kagemitsu. Buying it instead of saving up for signed Kagemitsu daito - super. Mumei Kiyomaro at 15k usd or mumei Naotane at 6 can be vastly more interesting, educational and enjoyable blades than 80% of Juyo at 30-60. Its a Rembrandt at 15k... with significant collectible-vise detriments.

@Rivkin it is really unfair for you to bait me like that because you know my feeling on the subject of Mumei in certain eras. I have been put to sword by so many people on the NMB for that view and it's just my personal view. But since you asked...

 

"And if someone says - ok, without saving at 5-10k you actually can buy a first tier shinshinto blade, but mumei, I guess you'll take a significant issue with that. What price range to strive for, when, how, is directly linked to how we perceive the financial value versus art versus collectible." 

 

In order for one to have a perception of financial value of anything they will need to have some knowledge and apply variables to that item in order to form an educated opinion, analysis is happening as soon as we start looking at an item of "value". You cannot do that if you have no educational background on the subject and it is at that moment that emotion takes over. The mind is so confused that the heart takes control and before we know it the item we knew nothing about is now in our collections. Love is like that, it is human nature. Whilst the heart is taking over there is a dealers description of the item that adds to the emotional context and then it is really game over. 

 

About your comment on Shinshinto Mumei blades, I have issue with this because you are making a blanket statement. In order to validate such a statement you must have seen all of the Mumei Shinshinto blades and compared them to all of the Zaimei Shinshinto blades and after about 5 decades of that comparison of 10's of thousands of swords in the shinshinto category to have concluded that, THIS Mumei sword is better than all the others...Have you really done this? 

 

*disclaimer, the following statement is just my opinion and mine alone, I am not imposing this personal rule on anyone else, put your swords away. 

 

When is Mumei ok:

When it is a Heian, Kamakura, Nambokucho period sword.

When is Mumei not ok:

When it is Muromachi, Shinto, Shinshinto, Gendaito, Modern. (exception is if it is a faithful Utsushi of an already mumei blade done by a later artisan).

 

Just because the Mumei Shinshinto is less expensive (and it is basically obvious why it is so cheap, it is mumei and the person selling it even respects that it cannot command a high price) does not make it a good item to add to a collection and you will 100% lose money reselling it after you have studied it. But what will you study on the Mumei Shinshinto? You will study Sugata, Hataraki, Jigane and, etc. Will you really know that this is 100% Hosokawa Masayoshi work and as he intended the work to be? No you will not, you will basically see elements that you could study in any well made Zaimei Gendaito or Modern sword that can also be bought for the price of a Mumei "top tier" Shinshinto sword. If I want to study Shinshinto Suketaka then I should hold out for signed examples to really see that this was Suketakas intention on Torandba hamon. As opposed to the Mumei one that might or might not be Suketaka but it is easier to convince myself that it is Suketaka because it is Mumei and no one can argue otherwise. Mumei can also never be Gimei. 

 

"For me, second generation Sukesada is more talented and interesting smith than Kagemitsu. Buying it instead of saving up for signed Kagemitsu daito - super. Mumei Kiyomaro at 15k usd or mumei Naotane at 6 can be vastly more interesting, educational and enjoyable blades than 80% of Juyo at 30-60. Its a Rembrandt at 15k... with significant collectible-vise detriments."

 

You have chosen the field well here because when we look at Zaimei Kiyomaro or Zaimei Naotane they are in the astronomical region of pricing. Juyo Kiyomaro or even THozon Kiyomaro can be in the 60K - 250K USD range. So yes then if you get NBTHK Mumei Kiyomaro and you want to see his schools production then you may be better off at the 15K range, will you sell it for 15K, no, but will you sell the Juyo Kiyomaro at the price you paid or more, yep, 100% you will, it takes time but you will. You will never really know your mumei was Kiyomaro, or his intention but it will no doubt be a nice study item. It will not be a Rembrandt. 

 

 

 

[Gerry]

Honestly, I wasn't even aware that there's a taboo against saving for a sword.

 

I just buy whatever excites me, whenever a piece like that comes along. Hobbies don't need to be taken so seriously, even if you're spending 6 figures on an item.

[Robert S]

6 hours ago, Brian said:

Guys,
I NEED you all to dial it back, and respect each other's opinions. I see too much antagonism in this thread, and really don't want to lock it.
I've been in hospital for 2 days, and likely going back again for a bit, so can't be worrying about you guys at each other's throats. Just respect each other's opinions and act like adults.
We've had some excellent intellectual discussion lately, so let's not ruin that, and I can't worry about babysitting this thread.
Please respect and listen to the moderators, they have my permission to do anything necessary.
I'd appreciate some respect for each other's opinions and way of collecting.

Hope you get better soon, Brian.  Hospitals are never fun...