Is this an authentic WW2 Japanese sword?

[TroyUT]

I’ve never posted here so I really appreciate any help you can give me on this. I recently purchased this sword on eBay and it was advertised by a seller with an excellent record of being an authentic WW2 Japanese sword. However when it arrived today I immediately became suspicious because the part underneath the wrappings on on the handle that is supposed to be ray skin looks like a plastic strip to me. Also I didn’t feel like markings on the tang looked engraved or stamped, they just seemed off. However I then started second guessing myself and thought maybe this is just what happens with age to one of these and the fact that I don’t know a whole lot about swords to begin with. So any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

[Conway S]

Hi Troy, 

 

Your suspicions about the quality of the fittings are correct. If you compare with genuine examples, you will see the seppa and tsuba are very crudely executed, especially the areas cut out for the side release. The detail in the saya hardware (haikan and ishizuki) is also lacking. The tsuka is also poorly wrapped and does not befit Japanese quality. From the pictures you posted of the blade, the nakago’s shape looks non-Japanese and the characters appear to be Chinese gibberish. 
 

Conway

 

 

[Conway S]

Didn’t want to post a wall of text, but the kabutogane seen here is also typical of Chinese fakes. 

[TroyUT]

Thanks for the quick reply, I really appreciate it! Well now I’m going to contact the seller and eBay about getting my money back. I hope that goes well!

[TroyUT]

Here are some better photos too. I know those first ones were not the best quality.

[TroyUT]

Here's some with the Habaki off as well.

 

[TroyUT]

Here's some with the Habaki off as well.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Bit of a mixed bag.  The wrap is folded the Chinese way, for sure.  Surprising detail on the fuchi, if it's a fake.  The machi and kissaki have proper shapes for a Japanese blade, but the fakes sometimes get that right.  I could give it 50/50 chance between fake and late-war made in Manchuria legit.  On second thought, though, the mei looks bad.  Waiting for the translation guys on that. 

 

As to plastic rayskin - it's called cellulite.  The Japanese used it throughout the war.  I used to think it was a late-war item, but I've seen several gunto using it with dates all through the war period.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

As to plastic rayskin - it's called cellulite....

I think the ladies and most of us men may have an issue with you there.
Celluloid 

[TroyUT]

Thanks Brad, you guys are amazing. I reached out to the seller on eBay and he said he’s totally willing to cancel the sale ( I paid $675 for it) if I want to. He seems to be a nice guy, he said he’s had it in his safe for years and bought it from a collector in New York. I told him I’m just waiting for a few more opinions. I really can’t thank you guys enough for helping me out on this.

[Scogg]

I agree with the above, and Bruce’s assessment; and I would personally jump on that opportunity for a cancelled order. 
 

It’s not a bad price if it’s real, but I think you can find something that will satisfy your interests more, if you give it time. 
 

IMHO,

All the best,

-Sam 

[Kiipu]

豐富豐丸作

 

The characters are real; however, it could be either Chinese or Japanese?  If Japanese, very uncommon in my opinion.  There was a city in Hokkaidō by the name of Toyotomi 豐富.

豐富 City name: Wikipedia: Toyotomi, Hokkaido

豊富: Wiktionary 豊富

豐丸: As a first name, could be pronounced as Toyomaru.

 

carbon copy

@Markus @SteveM @BANGBANGSAN

[TroyUT]

You guys are great, thank you very much. I tell you what, I'm definitely learning a lot more about these swords now! Here is another picture of the Mei , I cleaned out some of the chalk or whatever it was that was in there but it's definitely not painted on. 

 

[Kiipu]

I actually found a Japanese person who used this name.  When there is one, there could be others.

豊富豊丸 (農薬研究所)

 

Old vs New

豐 = 豊

[TroyUT]

Interesting, so the Mei could be legit then? What about this on the Kabuto-Gane, in this book I'm reading (Military Swords of Japan by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory) I thought it said that some of the fittings were brass but covered with a brown protective paint. I'm almost positive this "brass" coloring on here was painted on over the Kabuto-Gane to make it appear as though it had brass underneath.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Brian said:

I think the ladies and most of us men may have an issue with you there.
Celluloid 

DOH!!! 

[Bruce Pennington]

Sesko's list doesn't show a Toyomaru, however there are many late-war smiths we have been coming across that are not in his book.  Anything is possible in the world of WWII gunto.

As with the fuchi, that kabutogane has some nice workmanship.  Not what we normally see from fakers.

[SteveM]

The name itself is a plausible Japanese name, but I agree that the inscription looks very amateurish. Could be a real WW2 sword that someone added a name to, to make it seem more valuable. Then again, it could be something manufactured (or assembled) after the war. 

 

Without any documentation of such a smith, it is hard to have confidence that this item is an authentic war relic - even though it may well have been made in or around the middle of the last century. 

[TroyUT]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate everyone’s time and effort to help on this. Someone has suggested that I could get it into the hands of an expert and then a better determination could be made. Do you guys know of anyone in the US who is capable of this (and what the cost would be) or would they also just say the same things we have covered here? Because my dilemma now is that the seller on eBay has offered to take the sword back and refund my money, which sounds like a good option at this point although I feel kinda bad about returning it without being able to say it’s for sure a fake. I’m assuming that’s why it’s so important to examine items in person before you buy them or only buy from reputable dealers with these swords.

[Brian]

I honestly think there is little doubt the mei is fake. It just isn't done in the way that mei are done. Can't decide on the rest of the blade though. But the mei seems added for sure.

[Conway S]

I understand the dilemma of returning the sword, but it seems like the seller wasn’t sure what they had either. Even if this sword is wartime made in China (or somewhere else), it’s pretty low quality and in my opinion, wouldn’t be worth more than what you paid for it. I don’t know what your collecting goals are, but if you want something definitively made by the Japanese, then I would get your money back and put it toward something else. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Yeah, that's going to be a judgement call on your part Troy.  I think just about all of us have our fake or poor quality sword we bought at the beginning of our collecting years.  If money is tight, you might opt for the return.  If you have plenty for future purchases, then keep it as a lesson-learned.

[robinalexander]

Just adding to the above with my two bobs worth Troy.....in summary, I don't like the look of the following

 

the kabutogane

 

Ito (wrap)

 

the 'Orphan Annie' seppa

 

the Ashi

 

the mei is terribly cut IMO (done yesterday)

 

blade and habaki could be genuine (?) but even if they are, they are not in great shape and you have to look at the rest of it for a long time.  When you get a little more knowledge under your belt you may regret keeping it.

 

Go for a refund and put it toward something that really is wholly genuine (even if its in poor condition) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TroyUT]

Ok guys, I am going to return it. I know I’ve said it a hundred times but I cannot thank all of you enough for helping me out with this. I have learned more in the last day and a half of chatting with you guys than I ever knew before.