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Yoroi doshi tanto


estcrh

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Interesting mitsumune on yours.

 

I don't have pictures of mine, but it it Echizen Shimosaka and a nudge over 1cm thick. Not quite 1/2 inch thick. It is original to a Toppei Koshirae with locking mechanism that was given Tokubetsu Hozon papers and also dates from around 1865.

 

Yoroi doshi tanto seem to have enjoyed a real en vogue around that time.

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Interesting mitsumune on yours.

 

I don't have pictures of mine, but it it Echizen Shimosaka and a nudge over 1cm thick. Not quite 1/2 inch thick. It is original to a Toppei Koshirae with locking mechanism that was given Tokubetsu Hozon papers and also dates from around 1865.

 

Yoroi doshi tanto seem to have enjoyed a real en vogue around that time.

Maybe the increased popularity around that time had to do with the increased use of chain mail and other armored clothing instead of traditional armor. Sounds like an interesting tanto, if you take any pics I would like to see it.
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Well, It don't know about that Eric. It sounds good if there was a lot of people with armour about, but, there wasn't. The type was used to penetrate armour by probing the chinks in the yoroi and lower layers true, particularly in the warlike periods like the Sengoku period. I think later examples would more likely arise because of the general revival of early period weapons and the methods of forging. It seems most of the combat of the time was peasant/ religious sect uprisings bolstered with some poorly accoutred and disaffected ronin and of course the special groups like the Shinsengumi or the Tenchugumi of Tosa, more like thugs and assassins then battlefield warriors and poorly armoured if at all. John

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Well, It don't know about that Eric. It sounds good if there was a lot of people with armour about, but, there wasn't. The type was used to penetrate armour by probing the chinks in the yoroi and lower layers true, particularly in the warlike periods like the Sengoku period. I think later examples would more likely arise because of the general revival of early period weapons and the methods of forging. It seems most of the combat of the time was peasant/ religious sect uprisings bolstered with some poorly accoutred and disaffected ronin and of course the special groups like the Shinsengumi or the Tenchugumi of Tosa, more like thugs and assassins then battlefield warriors and poorly armoured if at all. John
John I agree, heavy armor was not used much by that time, but there was a lot of light weight chain mail such as kusari katabira and other kinds of armored clothing being used by different factions towards the end of the Edo period, I think that yoroi doshi and yari tantos would be the perfect weapon for dealing with this lighter kind of defensive armor. 100_3465.jpg ........Edo period 1800s kusari katabira chain mail jacket and hitai-ate helmet
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I can't gainsay they would pierce mail. That is a particularly light mail. Butted ring with twisted wire is it not? Can you describe it better? I can't enlarge it enough to see how it was constructed. It reminds me of firefighters mail. John
John, here are samples of the two types of chain used in this type of armor. That piece originally had a cloth exterior concealing the chain. If you notice the iron splints at the wrists for defense against slashing attacks, fire fighters outfits I have seen from that period were very thick and could be soaked in water to help keep them from burning.

100_3342.jpg

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Thanks Eric, I've seen the rivetted mail made and it is quite a fastidious job. This mail is as I thought. It certainly would give a sense of security though. I saw a documentary where butted mail was tested against rivetted. The broadhead arrows penetrated the butted mail with ease. The rivetted mail was more effective at defending penetration, although I still wouldn't want to be struck by one. This was with a longbow, there was no defense from a crossbow bolt. I had a hauberk made for me, it weighs about 16 kg. and it was fairly expensive, after all it is a job done still by hand. I imagine Japanese mail would only be available to well-to-do samurai or for retainers from the clan arsenal. That was a nice look at the construction. John

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Thanks Eric, I've seen the rivetted mail made and it is quite a fastidious job. This mail is as I thought. It certainly would give a sense of security though. I saw a documentary where butted mail was tested against rivetted. The broadhead arrows penetrated the butted mail with ease. The rivetted mail was more effective at defending penetration, although I still wouldn't want to be struck by one. This was with a longbow, there was no defense from a crossbow bolt. I had a hauberk made for me, it weighs about 16 kg. and it was fairly expensive, after all it is a job done still by hand. I imagine Japanese mail would only be available to well-to-do samurai or for retainers from the clan arsenal. That was a nice look at the construction. John

John, the butted mail would have been weaker than the riveted mail, its strange that the Japanese did not adopt the cross bow or maces, battle axe etc. They seemed to purposely restrict the use of certain types of weapons. When it comes to Japanese weapons and armor such as the yoroi doshi, yari tanto, cane swords, chain and armored clothing etc that are labeled sometimes as being ...novelties....I have wondered if we just do not have the proper information on why they were actually made and used, it has always seemed to me that for the most part the Japanese did not waste resources on weapons and armor for no reason. A link to a lot of Japanese chain and armored clothing pictures. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/samurai%20chainmail%20and%20armor%20samples/

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Just spotted this post and funnily enough I got my Yoroidoshi tanto back from the UK polisher Tony Norman today.

 

Mine is signed Bishu Inuyama ju Michiaki [尾州犬山住道暁] and dated 1867. The kasane is just over 1cm and it has a mitsu-mune.

 

The whole thing is awash with nie and ji-nie. Sorry that the poor quality photos really dont do it justice.

post-9-14196776080461_thumb.jpg

post-9-14196776081499_thumb.jpg

post-9-14196776083122_thumb.jpg

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I feel that most of the Tanto from this period are very much alike. About 90% of tanto I have seen from the 1850-60's period were of this size, and style. Some a bit longer, or wider, but all seemed to be very beefy.

 

I'm not sure a lot of chainmail was worn in combat, other then on kote, but I have little doubt that these tanto would wound someone very well through most Japanese chainmails. It is very likely that one could punch this through most thin iron armor of the day.

An inch deep punture wound, anywhere, will most likely end your day in the fight.

If today, I had to be in a real kniife fight, the weapon I would pick would be my 1850's tanto. period! Good length, sharp as a razor, very tiny chance of breaking.

Mark G

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I would agree. My Echizen Shimosaka very much resembles Peter's in appearance. Rather than be combat driven, it may have been more of a nationalistic en-vogue of some such fashion.

 

Some other interesting pieces of a military symbolistic bent more than functionality seem to originate from that brief period. The example that comes to mind is this:

http://www.nihonto.ca/takahashi-nobuhide/index.html

 

I think I saw it in San Fran years ago. Nice piece.

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I would agree. My Echizen Shimosaka very much resembles Peter's in appearance. Rather than be combat driven, it may have been more of a nationalistic en-vogue of some such fashion.

 

Some other interesting pieces of a military symbolistic bent more than functionality seem to originate from that brief period. The example that comes to mind is this:

http://www.nihonto.ca/takahashi-nobuhide/index.html

 

I think I saw it in San Fran years ago. Nice piece.

Curran, that an interesting item, its probable that the guy that had it made knew what he was doing but since we do not understand it use its easy for us to say its more for show.
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Per the original request of this post, here is another Yoroi Doshi Tanto for your viewing pleasure, hopefully.

 

Tenryshi Masataka; c. 1830, Chusaku. Grandson of Ozaki Suketaka, son of Takashige. Worked in Settsu then later in Kyoto. Produced mostly suguha in nioi. The motokasane of this tanto is just shy of 0.5". tight ko-itame with horimono of suken on ura and dragon on omote.

 

http://yakiba.com/Tanto_Masataka_merge.htm

 

 

 

Eric, I may have misunderstood your post regarding the Kama, "we don't understand it's use", if so please disregard. The Kama is an Okinawan weapon, originally a farm implement. This particular one is the smallest I have seen, but it is a kama no less. There was one for sale a few years ago on one of the Japanese web sites, full size, in koshirae(guess you call it that), mounted for use at any rate, not shirasaya. Would have bought it, but alas it was sold upon inquiry.

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Per the original request of this post, here is another Yoroi Doshi Tanto for your viewing pleasure, hopefully.

 

Tenryshi Masataka; c. 1830, Chusaku. Grandson of Ozaki Suketaka, son of Takashige. Worked in Settsu then later in Kyoto. Produced mostly suguha in nioi. The motokasane of this tanto is just shy of 0.5". tight ko-itame with horimono of suken on ura and dragon on omote.

 

http://yakiba.com/Tanto_Masataka_merge.htm

 

 

 

Eric, I may have misunderstood your post regarding the Kama, "we don't understand it's use", if so please disregard. The Kama is an Okinawan weapon, originally a farm implement. This particular one is the smallest I have seen, but it is a kama no less. There was one for sale a few years ago on one of the Japanese web sites, full size, in koshirae(guess you call it that), mounted for use at any rate, not shirasaya. Would have bought it, but alas it was sold upon inquiry.

Ed, your tanto is a beauty, good pics , what I meant was....sometimes people have a tendency when they see a relatively uncommon Japanese or samurai weapon, tool, armor etc to call it a ...novelty..or made for the tourist trade..etc..and that may well be but just because an item is not well researched or popular does not mean it was not actually used at some time. The kama pictured has a head that looks a lot like a Tomiguchi or firemans axe. I have seen a few with that same size and shape, just not so well made.
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Just spotted this post and funnily enough I got my Yoroidoshi tanto back from the UK polisher Tony Norman today.

 

Mine is signed Bishu Inuyama ju Michiaki [尾州犬山住道暁] and dated 1867. The kasane is just over 1cm and it has a mitsu-mune.

 

The whole thing is awash with nie and ji-nie. Sorry that the poor quality photos really dont do it justice.

Peter, thanks for sharing your pics, you just made me want to see more, Im sure your polisher would agree with me that you need a beter camera :D
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Ed,

 

Very fine tanto :) (I love tanto). What is interesting, but should be checked on a yoroi doshi population is the presence of very strong nie (visible in your tanto and even more on the other one), I had one with ara nie sometimes ago.

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Thank you Jean and Eric. I really like the other two as well, the nie in Peter's is great and the Ayasugi Hada in Erics is equally good for a shinshinto sword. Peter's appears to exhibit more of a standard shinshinto muji hada (could be the pics) but the nie really shines. Wish we had some better photos of Peter's.

 

While not as pronounced as Eric's, the atypical hada in my own is what first attracted me to it. I do like shinshinto swords with retro hada.

 

Jean,

Ok, I'll bite. Where are you going with the yoroi doshi related to nie thing ? Forging / Yakiire ? Period preferences ? Smith preferences ? Functional ability ? Aesthetics ? ????????????????

 

 

In closing, if I had to be in a knife fight, I'm bringing the Glock !!

It was either Confucius or Boudreaux who once said, "one should never attend a gunfight with a knife", or "one should never show up to a knife fight without a gun". Remember boy's and girls, God made man, Sam Colt made them equal.

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That's a good point Ed, but your Tanto will never run out of ammo!

 

Here is a kinda pic of my Tanto. I will have to get to the other computer to find the full shots. Mine has what a lot of people think is utsuri.

Not sure about that, but it does have a wonderful line of tiny nie, running the whole length on both sides down the mid blade. And some very pretty tiny black nie running the whole length of the yakiba.

Tight, flawless hada. Mark G

post-99-14196776120442_thumb.jpg

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That's a good point Ed, but your Tanto will never run out of ammo!

 

Here is a kinda pic of my Tanto. I will have to get to the other computer to find the full shots. Mine has what a lot of people think is utsuri.

Not sure about that, but it does have a wonderful line of tiny nie, running the whole length on both sides down the mid blade. And some very pretty tiny black nie running the whole length of the yakiba.

Tight, flawless hada. Mark G

Mark...more pics...very fine tight hada.
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Jean,

Ok, I'll bite. Where are you going with the yoroi doshi related to nie thing?

 

ED,

 

In fact, it is just a matter of fact statement but mainly on the shinshinto ones, I don't know the why, period, I should say probably, because the use of Yoroi doshi in the 19th century should have been reduced compared to Koto times.

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Mark,

You have me on the ammo point :lol: . Seriously though, I know the importance of a good knife and if I had to choose between gun or knife in a survival situation it would be the knife without second thought. In years past I was able to participate in a few Tanto jutsu seminars as well as spend some time in Batangas Phillipines where they are notorious knife fighters. Though I did not train long enough to become skilled, it was awesome to see and learn some of the vicious techniques of these Mantasdaga practitioners.

 

If you can locate more photos of your tanto post them, we would like to see them.

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