Man made or Machine made Shin Gunto?

[steve oakley]

Hi All,

The link below from ebay states the details of the sword but i have a few questions that the seller could not answer.

 

1. Kiyonobu was a sword smith around 1943 who was known for making medium to high grade swords? Also can anyone tell me about the smith Osumara Kiyonobu. Any opinions.

 

2. I have also been told that the deciphered mei or tang writing, one side says kiyonobu and the other side is in the 18 year of the showa period which is 1943?

 

3. What the seller did not know was if it was machine made or hand made. Any help there would be appreciated as from reading posts and it would determine value? I have been reading that although a sword can be signed it can also be machine made.

 

I got some advice before hand and told that it was geniune Shin Gunto.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... K:MEWNX:IT

 

regards

Steve O.

[Stephen]

Steve

 

when you get the sword get us a better shot of the mei....i dont see nobu that i know of, i think you did ok ...not sure what 1800 aussie dollars is in USA. looks to be a good clean gunto.

[Grey Doffin]

About $1,650 US. May be Nobu; need a better picture. Is seems weird that gunto are worth that much (are they?); when I got into this they were $300 in good condition.

Grey

[Stephen]

Is seems weird that gunto are worth that much (are they?); when I got into this they were $300 in good condition.

 

Yes Grey i remember them days, Military collectors are reall after them nowdays. a sound one under a grand is rare. remember when NCO were under a buck,,,now they bring upwards of the three you got guntos for.

 

1600+ is a bit over the market imho, but doubt hell lose money if he wants to resell in looks for a older blade.

 

looking forward to pix on the mei...it could just be my ol eyes.

[steve oakley]

Hi

 

Can you clarify the term Nobu as i am not sure what you mean by this.

 

Any opinion whether it would be machine made or man made, what do i look for to determine this?

 

regards

Steve O

[Bruno]

Probably hand made or at least hand finished as a hamon can be seen.

 

If the smith really made medium to high class swords, I guess it should be hand made.If he was well skilled it could be impossible to determine if it is tamahagane or non tamahagane sword, unless the tang has a stamp and/or a mark, et encore.

 

Is there any stamp or mark on the nakago?

 

Just my humble opinion

 

Regards

[Bruno]

I forgot to add that if the sword was made in 1943 and has no stamp it is probably a traditional gendaito, so yes a hand made one.

 

Once again I could be completly wrong, I hope better conoisseurs will help soon.

 

Regards

[Bruno]

BTW, there are 2 KIYONOBU:

 

1)NAGAMURA KIYONOBU in RIKUGUN AND KAIGUN JUMEI TOSHO

 

2)清宣 (Kiyonobu)長村 松 in SEKI KAJI TOSHO

 

I do not know(i am a crap in oshigata) if your KIYONOBU is among them but I hope it is not the one from SEKI KAJI.

 

Regards

[Henry Stewart]

Sir

 

The only way you will solve this question you pose will be to submit reasonable photographs of the body of the blade,Nakago and Kissaki.

I have noticed several of these small sellers appearing lately.and yes the price of these swords has been creeping upwards for some time.

 

 

Henry

[steve oakley]

Hi

 

From searching the site i found some references to KIYONOBU. The references indicate 4 characters for the smith, but i can only see 3 on the one side of the nakago. I have posted the photos, i also used a bit of powder to bring up the characters. Why would there be only 3?

 

On the other side of Nakago is the date i believe? There are no stamps or other marking on the Nakago.

 

regards

Steve O

[Stephen]

your katana 003 file

 

first cluster is kiyo...one kanji not two.

 

second so called nobu....id like someone to post that kanji as i see shige?

[John A Stuart]

Hi Stephen, 宣 Nobu, 重 Shige, also read Nobu. I think the first though. John

[Stephen]

Thanks John

 

i could not find that anywhere. Hai Domo!

[steve oakley]

Hi

 

The hamon is there but even with the naked eye i have to say that its just there.

 

In regards to the previous posts, i know there has been some discussion with the mei characters. Am i to read from your posts that it is signed as KIYONOBU or a different smith.

 

Also can we confirm the date on the other side which will give us the exact maker of the blade. There was mention from Bruno that is could be SEKI KAJI TOSHO?

 

And finally would this be the machine made but finished off by hand considering the hamon apprearance???

 

Lots of questions, i know, still going through old posts to inform myself better.

regards

Steve O

[John A Stuart]

I think it is 昭和十八年, Showa juhachi nen. 1943. John

[sanjuro]

Consider a further possibility here regarding the hand or machine made question.

 

I have owned a few of these blades over the years and in the latter war years the Japanese were indeed still making swords by hand. All comments above being valid I think you have a decent hand made blade there.

The appearance of the hamon which as you say is a bit foggy usually comes about from a machine polish, rather than a hand finished polish as you suggest. This would make sense rather than the other way around since the Japanese in 1943 didnt have the time to wait around while some Togishi did a full polish from scratch on a new blade.

 

I'm an Aussie also and it seems you have paid top dollar for this sword. The up side however is that these things arent getting any cheaper. You wont lose money in the long run.

 

Just my opinion.

[GregD]

From Fuller and Gregorys for comparison

Greg

[steve oakley]

Hi

 

Greg after posting the references i am again not sure, either way i supppose it could be one or the other, thanks for the help. Could the date solve the problem or were both smiths active in that time?

regards

Steve O

[Nobody]

...... after posting the references i am again not sure, either way i supppose it could be one or the other, thanks for the help. ......

The mei on your sword looks Kiyonobu (清宣) to me.

[Nihonto Chicken]

Steve, your blade looks pretty clean, aside from the rust spots at the kissaki. The hamon looks maybe to be nioi deki, and so won't stand out as well as one heavy with nie, and, of course, a sub-standard polish tends to wash out the activity. I recommend that you consider using some good quality uchiko and doing a "Jim Kurrasch Memorial Power Uchiko Job" on the blade. That is, take an hour or so each evening, say while watching American Idle or Dancing With The 'Tards (just kidding), and uchiko the sword. Just be careful not to get distracted or complacent and cut yourself. And replace your paper or cloth periodically (once the sweat on my fingers worked its way through the cloth and contacted the blade, which I put away without re-oiling, as I was going to hit it again early the next day, was greeted by long streaks of technicolor brown on the sword). With five to ten hours or so of uchiko work, a lot of hidden hataraki can become visible. Even mill steel will develop a velvety texture (assuming it was smooth to begin with). There is little likelihood of doing damage using the uchiko, other than partially erasing the yokote, and, given the rust spots, your kissaki needs a rework anyway. (Note, please DON'T consider using finger stones, it is too easy to do some real damage with those.) Just a suggestion, can be a good bonding experience with your new sword. Good fortune!

 

Rick B.

[steve oakley]

Hello All

This is an old thread i have revisted. After cleaning i inspected the Nakago and found what i could believe to be the impression of a stamp. Or my eyes are old and interpretting things wrong and it could be a couple of dents. The stamp itself is unreadable.

 

I thought that considering it is only signed as KIYONOBU on the Nakago and not the full signature of NAGAMURA KIYONOBU that the stamp would attribute it to the lower class sword maker of SEKI KAJI TOSHO. I have only seen two other swords and both were signed with the Nagamura KIYONOBU

 

Any opinions on whether this could have been a stamp as i thought it was roughly in the right spot to be a stamp.

 

regards

Steve