Help labelling two Tsuba (Christmas present)

[Robyn]

Sorry. I put this in the wrong forum last time.

 

I bought a pair of tsubas for my dad for Christmas. He isn't a collector as such, but he displays curiosities from around the world in his office and I thought these, framed and mounted, would be nice for him to put on his wall. I have a frame, but before I do the label, I was wondering if someone here could check and see that I have the information correct, or if there is anything useful which I may add to the labelling.

 

These were both quite cheap, so I don't expect them to be great quality. They are more just for curiosities for him to display. These were from yumi3go55 on ebay. I checked his name before buying and he appeared in a few threads saying his items are legitimate but cheap/low quality. Which is why I bought from him, I don't have the funds to pay loads for a Christmas present.

 

1 - I have it labelled so far as Edo Period, Eagle on a branch. 

 

2 - This one has a carved signature on it. Which the seller describes as Eod period, the signature being of Busyu Masakata. Google tells me he lived inShirogane city and died 1774.

 

 

Would these descriptions for the label be correct--and is there anything else you think I should add of interest to them?

 

Thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

The photos are a bit fuzzy but the second one looks like iron, and Bushu is the more modern/Western spelling of Busyu.

 

Is that one dragon in... a plum/apricot tree?

 

I would add their 3 measurements, and from these suggestions as to which kind of blade they might have fitted, e.g. Wakizashi or Katana. You could mention what the side 'hitsu' ana are for.(?) It might be nice to write the Japanese terms and their English meanings alongside? Or on the back if it begins to look too busy. 

[Robyn]

3 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The photos are a bit fuzzy but the second one looks like iron, and Bushu is the more modern/Western spelling of Busyu.

 

Is that one dragon in... a plum/apricot tree?

 

I would add their 3 measurements, and from these suggestions as to which kind of blade they might have fitted, e.g. Wakizashi or Katana. You could mention what the side 'hitsu' ana are for.(?) It might be nice to write the Japanese terms and their English meanings alongside? Or on the back if it begins to look too busy. 

 

Thanks for the help. Sellers description of both says they are iron.

 

I have the measurements. The description from the seller says both are Katana. The eagle is 2.9 inch high x 2.7 inch across. The dragon is 2.7 inch high x 2.6 inch across. 

I will add the info about the hitsu ana. I found a nice chart that I may print out with the aprts labelled, which I think I will display in the center. Thw Tsuba either side and then chart in the center would look quite nice. 

 

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Robyn.

 

This is a veru thpughtful gift which I am certain will be much appreeciated.  Piers has given you a good lead on the second, for the first I would lable it as a copy of the famous Shimizu Jingo design, see here, https://markussesko.com/2014/02/02/tsuba-with-the-bird-of-prey-catching-a-monkey-motif/

 

If you have any interest beyond this Christmas then spend some time browsing here, 

  Bob has a good eye and you will learn a lot from what he has shared.

 

All the best.

[Spartancrest]

Robyn, if you are looking at long term, don't forget any provenance including your own, it all adds to the story.

How are you going to mount them? Open board, glass case etc. Make sure no glues are used on the metal.

Some similar Eagle/Hawk  http://www.nihonto.us/KANSHIRO HAWK TSUBA.htm

 

These guys use glue to stick their display board tsuba [fakes] - the tsuba often turn up years later with bits of glue and board still attached - if they were "real" it would make you cry.

[Robyn]

17 hours ago, Geraint said:

This is a veru thpughtful gift which I am certain will be much appreeciated.  Piers has given you a good lead on the second, for the first I would lable it as a copy of the famous Shimizu Jingo design, see here, https://markussesko.com/2014/02/02/tsuba-with-the-bird-of-prey-catching-a-monkey-motif/

 

Thanks. I see Bushu Masakata tsubas appear online with "Bushu Ito Masakata. He was the 3rd generation main line head of the Bushu Ito school."

 

Does that mean that Bushu Masakata actually made this Tsuba, or is it a case of where Tsubas made at his school were engraved with his name, regardless of whether he made it or not?

 

 

 

That is interesting that it is a copy of a famous design. So, was that a common thing? For a famous maker to create a design and then lots of others sort of mimic it? That is very cool to know.

[Spartancrest]

Robyn, yes it is a common occurrance - when not intended to be a deception it is called a "Utsushi" an emulation of the original design. Some schools later, did countless "copies" of famous well selling designs such as the Kinai schools 'Aoi' leaves and other designs. Utsushi are not really copies as they are supposed to have something of the makers own take on the design and as I say it is more of a homage to some earlier master work.

 

 

 

Getting back to how not to mount display tsuba - Glue and tsuba don't mix -  https://www.jauce.com/auction/n1075725798   

[Bugyotsuji]

A funny thing happened on the way to the forum market today.

 

I bought a tsuba solely because I liked the design, but when I looked at it later I discovered the name of the maker... 武州住正方

 

Now where have we seen that name recently???

[ROKUJURO]

Piers,

congratulations! Can we see photos?

I think there must have been several generations of MASAKATA as the name appears quite often in connection with BUSHU TSUBA.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, yes, of course. I know nothing about this smith so my quest starts now!
Just taking initial shots… under kitchen lighting.

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Nice and good condition! The subject looks familiar to one of mine: 
 

[Seth]

Sorry I know this is off topic, but I couldn't resist. This is one from my collection.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Seth,

I can't read the MEI properly. Is that CHOSHU no JU KIYOTAKA?

[Seth]

Jean, sorry for the poor picture I was at work when I saw this, so I had to post what I had. But yes, Choshu ju Kiyotaka.

[Bugyotsuji]

So what's going on here? Yesterday I found some similar examples on the net, (e.g. one with two interlocked kura, but identical zogan) plus a list of these Edo/Bushu Masa... smiths. Masakata was the third, 三代.

 

Seth, can we see the back of yours?

[Seth]

Piers see below, grabbed some better pics just now. I just assumed it might have been a popular design (saddle & whip) although yours is the only other one that I had seen this close albeit reversed from mine (Tachi v Katana?). I try to collect horse themed tosogu. 

 

69 x 66 x 4.8mm

 

[Bugyotsuji]

That is so weird, and interesting, Seth. Many thanks. Maybe we should start a separate thread on horse-themed tosogu as I have a few bits to add.

[Seth]

3 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

That is so weird, and interesting, Seth. Many thanks. Maybe we should start a separate thread on horse-themed tosogu as I have a few bits to add.

 

It is, isn't it! Sounds good to me, I also have a few to contribute. I didn't mean to hijack this thread, sorry op.

[Bugyotsuji]

Found supporting evidence for Masakata d of d 1774.

 

銘 正方 笹透図鍔/鐔 | 鍔販売の両国 永楽堂 (eirakudo.shop)

 

伊藤派は江戸幕府の鍔専門工として活躍した。

元禄時代の正長を初代として二代正垣ー三代正方ー四代正吉ー五代正近ー六代正種ー七代正也ー八代正乗ー九代正広ー十代正隆と継承している。

正方（政方）は、通称をはじめ源二郎といい、家督を相続してから甚右衛門と改めた。細透彫を得意とし、正恒の子であるとも言われ安永三年（1774）没した。

[Andi B.]

...this tsuba from horse thread has a '73 green paper mumei Bushu Masakata ....

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently I found a silver tsuba with a similar theme of kura and muchi (and saihai), but signed by 正光 Masamitsu of Edo. It looks to be closer to solid/pure silver than any shibuichi I've seen.

I saw recently a comment by Ford to the effect that (Edo) silver would have contained about 0.3% gold. 

Photo to follow...

 

 

[Bazza]

Could it be pewter???

 

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

4 hours ago, Bazza said:

Could it be pewter???

 

BaZZa.

Just realized you might have been addressing me!!!   

 

Someone has filed away the inside walls of the nakago-ana (to check?) and they are bright and shiny throughout. I've seen a lot of both silver and pewter, but my eyes tell me this is silver. The blackened  parts look the way oxydized silver usually does. It's heavy but quite slim, suggesting that the material might have been too valuable to waste. (?) Normally one can bend silver, but I have not yet tried that. 

 

Even so, if I took this to the West, as it is not hall-marked, I suspect it would be labelled 'white metal', which is what happened to a wonderful silver sukashi manju Netsuke that I once owned.

[kissakai]

Unusual to be recessed om the back so that saves precious metal 
Can you it tested for silver or is there a diy kit that would work

 

[Bazza]

OK - try again.  Could it be HAKUDO???

 

BaZZa.

=======================================================

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43547-fake-or-fortune/#comment-450748

Posted February 4

I found this on the web:

HAKUDO = An alloy of 70-80% copper and 20-30% tin. As is known from mirrors made of HAKUDO, the tin content is higher than in bronze.

It sounds a bit surprizing that this alloy should have a silvery colour, considering the high copper content.

I am sure @Ford Hallam could tell us all about HAKUDO.

Regards,

Jean C.

THEN:

Ford Hallam

Posted February 6

Just passing by and thought I could add my 5 yen's worth 

Hakudo is indeed a high tin alloy, typically 20 to 23% tin. In it's usual cast alloy form it's incredibly hard and brittle so unlikely to be used in tosogu making, especially menuki which are worked up from flat sheet.

[Ford Hallam]

Hakudo can in fact appear quite silvery depending on how it might be treated when polished and it's final treatment. Sometimes a simple heating is enough to allow the tin content to migrate to the surface resulting in an enriched finish of tin, thus more silvery. Alternatively, in some circumstances the copper in the surface skin can oxidise more readily than the tin and then be selectively be lost through cleaning or pickling in a mild acid. Again the result is a tin enriched surface. 

 

Hope that helps 

 

Ford

[1kinko]

Why not shiro shibuichi? I’ve got a tsuba that Ford helped me cast (New Hampshire class) that is 60-70% silver that looks like pure silver and required sulfide treatment to darken (quickly) but might have darkened naturally over a long period of time.