Civilian swords?

[KB1107]

Hello all,

 

My brother in law sent me these few photos of swords he acquired when his father passed away several years ago. Apparently, he brought back all three swords while stationed in Japan during and after the war. I told him that I believe all three are civilian swords. The saya’s with suspension rings has me scratching my head though.

 

Thoughts?

[Ray Singer]

HI David, we will need to see more detailed photos of the swords including the nakago (tang) with the handles removed. Please take care not to handle the polished blade with your hands directly as this will case rust. Wipe down the blade and keep it oiled.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

[KB1107]

Here’s second sword

[KB1107]

And the third...

[KB1107]

Sorry, these are the only photos that I have... the tsuka’s have never been removed. These swords are exactly how they were when brought back to US from WW2

[dschumann]

To reiterate what Ray said, please don't touch the blades with your bare hands. This causes rust, which will damage the blades.

 

You either need to post better pictures or take it to someone who knows nihonto and can evaluate them in person.

[KB1107]

Thank you for the comments... the blades aren’t in my possession. My brother in law doesn’t want to take them apart to expose the tang. I was only questioning the the mounts and the saya’s. I’ve told him the same about the blades... use a light coat of oil and don’t touch with bare hands

[Misconstrued]

I understand the not wanting to take the handle off to expose the tang. If your brother in law is comfortable with maybe traveling to the San Francisco show going on. I'm pretty confident someone there can help you there if you want more in hand help. Sadly I don't know anything about the shows going on. But the blades appear to be civilian. Best of luck!

 

-Jace.

[Matsunoki]

5 hours ago, KB1107 said:

I was only questioning the the mounts and the saya’s.

David, from the images I would say that all 3 swords are prewar. Just how old it’s impossible to tell without the images requested above. The suspension rings looks as if they were a “cheap” type that could used to mount older samurai period saya for WW2 wartime use. They were also used on actual WW2 saya. The original kurigata  is simply removed and the suspension mounts slid up the saya, sometimes glued in place. It’s a quick way to remount the sword. However the original saya sadly sustains damage in the process….chipped and worn lacquer etc etc The one with two rings was possibly mounted for a naval officer but the saya on that one looks WW2. Just my opinions….others know far more than me! I’m sure I’ll be corrected! 

[Brian]

I'm sorry, but I get kinda cross when people say "I don't want to take the handle off"
This is not taking apart your drone to see if you can fix it. Nihonto were MADE to be taken apart, and it's generally a 10 second process. Tell him to stop being silly. It's like he has a painting and there is a piece of masking tape over the signature and he doesn't want to take it off. The tang of a sword is VITAL to knowing anything about it. If he won't do that, he's going to know nothing about it. Simple as that.
In which case, he should pass it on to someone who does actually want to know something.
Sorry, but that is how I feel. I wonder how many $10K swords lie in collections unrecognized and rusting away because someone won't remove a wooden peg?

[KB1107]

Hi Jace,

 

Thanks for the post... I don’t think he’s that interested about the swords to go to San Francisco (Not too far from him in Colorado). Collecting swords or WW2 items isn’t a hobby of his. He knows I collect WW1 & WW2 weapons and was just curious if I could tell him anything about these swords. I told him what I thought... and also wanted to know what this forum thought with the limited pics and info the he sent me.

 

Thanks again,

David

[KB1107]

Hi Colin,

 

I completely agree with your assessment of these swords and actually told Bruce the same thing... (that’s the reason I mentioned about the 2 suspension rings, I was thinking naval as well). All the saya’s appear to be in rough condition as you’ve said... all the blades look to be in prett good condition... limited staining. I advised him to refrain from touching with bare hands and to put a light coat of oil on them once in while. A very good possibility that they’re old blades... 

 

 

Thanks again for chiming in!

David

[KB1107]

Hi Brian,

 

They’re not my swords and I don’t like to tell people to do something they’re not comfy in doing. I also don’t want to feel responsible if he gets a little too aggressive with removing the tsuka and something breaks. I explained to him it’s a simple process of removing a wooden dowel. I’m heading up to see them in August... maybe I can help him and post pics here if that happens. 

 

Believe me... I would like to know if there’s a signature and what time period they’re from as well.

 

Thanks for the post,

David

[Bruce Pennington]

David,

I live in Colorado Springs.  Depending on his/your locations, I could visit for a look-see if you like.  PM is you want to toss the idea around.

[KB1107]

Hello all,

 

I finally made it out to Colorado Springs (Bruce’s neck of the woods). My bother-in-law set out the swords before they left on vacation.

 

I believe 2 of the 3 swords are pre war and very old. The first one I will post appears to be war time (IMO). The nakago looks too clean to be old and the metal appears to be anti rust? 
 

2 out of the 3 swords are signed. Not very easy to get photos of the wakizashi signature.  This sword is the worst condition of the three.
 

Hope the photos will be sufficient.

[KB1107]

The wakizashi… 

[KB1107]

Unsigned nakago… 

 

[KB1107]

[SteveM]

First one

筑紫四郎国光作　　Chikushi Shirō Kunimitsu saku     Made by Shirō Kunimitsu of Chikushi Province (Fukuoka Prefecture)

 

Second one

家次 Ietsugu (swordsmith's name). There were a few swordsmiths who produced swords under this name. 

[KB1107]

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for the translation… would you know an approximate era for each? Second one probably just a guess since a few have that name.

[SteveM]

First one is modern era. Shirō Kunimitsu's life spans 1897-1986. It should be a good sword. 

 

Second one...I have no idea. I will have a look around. Do you have any pictures of the blade itself? 

[KB1107]

Yes, but it’s badly stained... 

[SteveM]

Yeah - its too tough to say what era the sword is from by looking at these photos. There are something like 20+ swordsmiths who used the name "Ietsugu", and they spanned about 600 years from the 1200s to the 1800s. My wild guess is that your sword is toward the latter end of that spectrum. 

 

[KB1107]

I figured it would be a challenge pinning down a date due to the condition of the sword.

 

Thanks Steve for taking the time to answer my questions…

 

David

[PNSSHOGUN]

Kunimitsu was a very good Gendai smith and this would be worth looking at restoration:

 

http://www.jp-sword.com/files/blade/kunimitsu/kunimitsu.htm

[KB1107]

Hello and thank you for the link…  the Kunimitsu is in pretty good condition, as is the other Katana (Without a signature). The only poor condition one is the wakizashi. 
 

I’ve added a couple photos of the Kunimitsu blade

[Surfson]

How long is the cutting edge on the unsigned blade?

 

[KB1107]

This is the unsigned blade... 

 

Signed - 27”

Unsigned- 27.5”

Wakizashi- 19.5”