Interested in purchasing a tachi, ideally ubu, Nanbokucho era, hozon or higher papers

[drl]

Thanks in part to the helpful suggestions from this forum (what took me so long to find NMB?...), I recently completed my quest to purchase a true daisho, papered together as daisho, with original koshirae.

 

I'm also looking for a tachi, ideally with the following characteristics:

- Ubu (unshortehed)

- Cutting edge ≥ 72 cm

- Nanbokucho era (pre-Edo strongly preferred)

- With period tachi koshirae (ideally original)

- Papered as Hozon, Tokubetsu Hozon, or higher

 

I've browsed several dealers' stock and thus far saw several nice pieces, but none that meet enough of these criteria to pursue.  

 

Any suggestions for dealers or candidate tachi would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks. 🙏

[ChrisW]

I wish you the best of luck in your search, but you are going to really struggle with the first and fourth characteristic, especially the fourth one. Finding original koshirae on a tachi is almost impossible.

[drl]

1 minute ago, ChrisW said:

I wish you the best of luck in your search, but you are going to really struggle with the first and fourth characteristic, especially the fourth one. Finding original koshirae on a tachi is almost impossible.

Thank you; I appreciate—and agree with—your caveat.  I guess a part of the fun for me is the challenge of finding that rarest confluence of history, art, and culture in near-original form.

 

(Then again, I thought finding a true daisho papered together Tokubetsu Hozon with original koshirae would be impossible, but it actually came to be.)

[ChrisW]

I would talk to dealers who have strong contacts in Japan, like Darcy for example.

[Jussi Ekholm]

What would be your approximate budget? Would you be accepting for an Edo period koshirae for the sword? Pre-Muromachi koshirae tend to be mostly owned by museums & shrines / temples in Japan as surviving full examples are very rare.

 

There are few packages for sale that come fairly close to your standards that few Japanese dealers have currently in their inventory (there have been more in the fairly recent past but have been sold). I think Dai Tōken Ichi in Japan would be the best place to seek such an item as I believe pretty much all the "top dog" dealers are present. I think the search for an item like this that is excatly to your liking could take several years. And at least for me the search is always very fun part.

[Gakusee]

Budget needs to be 50+k for something like that. 

[NewB]

12 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Budget needs to be 50+k for something like that. 

 

Probably double if not triple IMHO.. ubu tachi nanbokucho is Juyo, if not above and then original koshirae lol

 

Maybe I'm wrong but if this exists is worthy of making a documentary about it.

 

Good luck!

 

J.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is tachi by Aoe smith Naotsugu dated to 1332. Although it is slightly suriage, as it still retains signature and date I think it to be great reference piece maybe more than many ubu mumei pieces. Koshirae of this is much later and I am not a koshirae guy so to me koshirae like this is not too relevant. Also interesting as Gentoku has 3 years and then era changed. Perhaps the smith was not aware of that the era had changed?

 

https://nihontou.jp/choice03/toukenkobugu/tachi/030/00-00.html

 

Here is tachi that is mumei and attributed towards Ichimonji from middle of Kamakura period. The Jūyō paper states nakago is almost ubu and gives the middle of Kamakura period as the age of the sword. Koshirae on this is of course much later again but very very nice. I am bit puzzled as NBTHK classified this as almost ubu but they have the expert panel that has seen the sword.

 

https://katananokura.jp/SHOP/1203-TC01.html

 

I can dig for some old ones that have been sold for reference. Unfortunately I think many of the dealers delete the sold items from online.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I must admit I am having way too much fun digging these treasures up. I think these should tick all of your boxes, all with various tachi koshirae too. While not for sale this gives an idea what may be up in say 5-10 years time if not buying directly in private or one pops up for sale sooner.

 

This Yoshimune would be my holy grail... 94,3 cm and ubu. Passed session 26 as Yoshioka Ichimonji but got reattributed in TokuJū 25 as Ko-Bizen.

Was 14M and after TJ got bumped to 28M.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161107181756/https:/www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/368.html

 

Mihara Masaie tachi signed and dated to 1359. 86,4 cm and ubu, this passed session 18 and TJ 25. This was sold before passing TJ for 8M, havent seen it online after that.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171203085209/http://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/466.html

 

Unshō tachi that is 79,3 cm and ubu. Jūyō 19 and this was for 13M

https://web.archive.org/web/20121024004914/http:/katananokura.jp:80/SHOP/1206-TC02.html

 

Tachi by Nagamitsu, ubu 77,8 cm. This passed session 62 and was sold quite recently. Unfortunately never saw a price for this as it was already sold when they put it online

https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/V-1719.html

 

Bungo Yukihira tachi, 77,4 cm and ubu. This is from Tokujū 21, and now resides in the collection of a new museum in Japan.

https://www.yamasiroya.com/katana/tachi/post_12.html

 

Toshimitsu tachi dated to 1390, 74,1 cm. This is Tokubetsu Hozon and now resides in the same museum collection as above tachi. Asking price was 7,5M

https://web.archive.org/web/20160320223352/http:/www.seiyudo.com:80/ka-070315.htm

 

Here are 6 amazing examples, unfortunately many of the items I have saved as links are now dead

 

 

[drl]

31 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I must admit I am having way too much fun digging these treasures up. I think these should tick all of your boxes, all with various tachi koshirae too. While not for sale this gives an idea what may be up in say 5-10 years time if not buying directly in private or one pops up for sale sooner.

 

This Yoshimune would be my holy grail... 94,3 cm and ubu. Passed session 26 as Yoshioka Ichimonji but got reattributed in TokuJū 25 as Ko-Bizen.

Was 14M and after TJ got bumped to 28M.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161107181756/https:/www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/368.html

 

Mihara Masaie tachi signed and dated to 1359. 86,4 cm and ubu, this passed session 18 and TJ 25. This was sold before passing TJ for 8M, havent seen it online after that.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171203085209/http://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/466.html

 

Unshō tachi that is 79,3 cm and ubu. Jūyō 19 and this was for 13M

https://web.archive.org/web/20121024004914/http:/katananokura.jp:80/SHOP/1206-TC02.html

 

Tachi by Nagamitsu, ubu 77,8 cm. This passed session 62 and was sold quite recently. Unfortunately never saw a price for this as it was already sold when they put it online

https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/V-1719.html

 

Bungo Yukihira tachi, 77,4 cm and ubu. This is from Tokujū 21, and now resides in the collection of a new museum in Japan.

https://www.yamasiroya.com/katana/tachi/post_12.html

 

Toshimitsu tachi dated to 1390, 74,1 cm. This is Tokubetsu Hozon and now resides in the same museum collection as above tachi. Asking price was 7,5M

https://web.archive.org/web/20160320223352/http:/www.seiyudo.com:80/ka-070315.htm

 

Here are 6 amazing examples, unfortunately many of the items I have saved as links are now dead

 

 

Thank you so much, Jussi.  Your tach-divining powers are very impressive.  I'll enjoy going through all of these!  (I just finished going through all the dealers' websites in the 2021 Dai Token listing).

[lonely panet]

THE NAGAMITSU is a treat

[Brian]

That Yoshimune is incredible!

[PNSSHOGUN]

You can find swords of the calibre with excellent Koshirae made during the Edo period, one with original Tachi.....that will be extraordinarily difficult.

[Nihontocollector752]

With original koshirae and ubu Nanbokucho, at juyo for both the sword and the koshirae please set aside 350k USD for the set.

[drl]

14 minutes ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

With original koshirae and ubu Nanbokucho, at juyo for both the sword and the koshirae please set aside 350k USD for the set.

Does not need to be juyo (tokubetsu hozon would be fine), and the fittings do not need to be original, just period.  But yes, I'm aware of the approximate pricing of these items.

[Gakusee]

350k is too much for Juyo blade and Juyo koshirae (on average) for a Nanbokucho blade. Well, Fred had a nice TJ Kagemitsu tachi with Muromachi tachi koshirae. I think it was priced around $200k. 
 

Is there nothing here that appeals??

https://www.nihonto.com/category/for-sale/swords/juyo-token/

 

 

[drl]

3 hours ago, Gakusee said:

350k is too much for Juyo blade and Juyo koshirae (on average) for a Nanbokucho blade. Well, Fred had a nice TJ Kagemitsu tachi with Muromachi tachi koshirae. I think it was priced around $200k. 
 

Is there nothing here that appeals??

https://www.nihonto.com/category/for-sale/swords/juyo-token/

 

 

Many appeal, but none are quite what I’m looking for—but I enjoyed going through them.  Thanks for sharing.

[Gakusee]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:20 PM, drl said:

Thanks in part to the helpful suggestions from this forum (what took me so long to find NMB?...), I recently completed my quest to purchase a true daisho, papered together as daisho, with original koshirae.

 

I'm also looking for a tachi, ideally with the following characteristics:

- Ubu (unshortehed)

- Cutting edge ≥ 72 cm

- Nanbokucho era (pre-Edo strongly preferred)

- With period tachi koshirae (ideally original)

- Papered as Hozon, Tokubetsu Hozon, or higher

 

I've browsed several dealers' stock and thus far saw several nice pieces, but none that meet enough of these criteria to pursue.  

 

Any suggestions for dealers or candidate tachi would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks. 🙏

Nanbokucho tachi but with nagasa of “only” 71cm as a bit suriage, vs your desired 72cm: https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-kashu-kagemitsu/

Rather than focus only on period and length, would be worthwhile to figure out school too. 

[O koumori]

David,

Not sure where you are located in the US - Are you planning on attending the Chicago show in April?

 

I am the current custodian of this tachi:

 https://nihontoart.com/shop/tachi-signed-akikuni/, 

and could bring it to the show for you to examine if you are interested.

 

While not Nanbokucho, it is from the Oie period (1394 to 1429), Tokubetsu Hozon, 74.9 cm, and Edo koshirae.

 

(My apologies to Nick for referencing his excellent website photos; my photography skills are decidedly lacking!)

 

Dan K.

[drl]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

Nanbokucho tachi but with nagasa of “only” 71cm as a bit suriage, vs your desired 72cm: https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-kashu-kagemitsu/

Rather than focus only on period and length, would be worthwhile to figure out school too. 

Thank you, Gakusee—that one is already on my list of candidates.  I really appreciate you raising it as well!

[drl]

6 minutes ago, O koumori said:

David,

Not sure where you are located in the US - Are you planning on attending the Chicago show in April?

 

I am the current custodian of this tachi:

 https://nihontoart.com/shop/tachi-signed-akikuni/, 

and could bring it to the show for you to examine if you are interested.

 

While not Nanbokucho, it is from the Oie period (1394 to 1429), Tokubetsu Hozon, 74.9 cm, and Edo koshirae.

 

(My apologies to Nick for referencing his excellent website photos; my photography skills are decidedly lacking!)

 

Dan K.

Thank you, Dan! I'm on the east coast but not sure if I will be able to make it to Chicago in April.  But I will check.  Thank you as well for pointing out that tachi.  There's a lot I like, though the koshirae's utilitarian "tusken raider" aesthetic may or may not be my cup of tea.  Will need to contemplate more.

[Nihontocollector752]

12 hours ago, drl said:

Does not need to be juyo (tokubetsu hozon would be fine), and the fittings do not need to be original, just period.  But yes, I'm aware of the approximate pricing of these items.

I think the point here is that any seller with original Nanbokucho koshirae to an original Nanbokucho, ubu sword isn't going to get Tokubetsu hozon and chill, they're going for full status and that's juyo minimum just on rarity alone. 

[Nihontocollector752]

5 hours ago, O koumori said:

David,

Not sure where you are located in the US - Are you planning on attending the Chicago show in April?

 

I am the current custodian of this tachi:

 https://nihontoart.com/shop/tachi-signed-akikuni/, 

and could bring it to the show for you to examine if you are interested.

 

While not Nanbokucho, it is from the Oie period (1394 to 1429), Tokubetsu Hozon, 74.9 cm, and Edo koshirae.

 

(My apologies to Nick for referencing his excellent website photos; my photography skills are decidedly lacking!)

 

Dan K.

This is a shortened Muromachi sword? Best avoid shortened swords from after Nanbokucho, or so I've seen discussed here before 

[NewB]

*unrelated*

 

Any chance you could show us your pictures of the daisho you purchased?

 

I'd be thrilled to see some personally

 

Thank you SIR

 

J.

[drl]

18 hours ago, Darkcon said:

*unrelated*

 

Any chance you could show us your pictures of the daisho you purchased?

 

I'd be thrilled to see some personally

 

Thank you SIR

 

J.

Yes, happy to share photos of the daisho once the export/import process is complete.

[paul tsubadotinfo]

Hello David,

Going through the thread I couldn't yet distinguish your budget but I guess it is something between 50k and 150k Dollars?

Also which DEN would you be looking for? As you are looking for Nanbokucho blades I assume you rather tend to Soshu, correct?

 

Well, if you are seriously interested in looking further I could contact some collectors here to see what is up for sale. In that case please contact me directly.

contact@tsuba.info

 

Cheers

Paul

[drl]

7 hours ago, paul_tsuba_info said:

Hello David,

Going through the thread I couldn't yet distinguish your budget but I guess it is something between 50k and 150k Dollars?

Also which DEN would you be looking for? As you are looking for Nanbokucho blades I assume you rather tend to Soshu, correct?

 

Well, if you are seriously interested in looking further I could contact some collectors here to see what is up for sale. In that case please contact me directly.

contact@tsuba.info

 

Cheers

Paul

Thank you, Paul— email sent.

[SteveM]

I just saw this one on the Chōshūya site. The koshirae is new-ish, but an excellent bit of lacquer-work, and in outstanding condition. The sword is ubu, and comes with a good provenance. Apologies if this one was already posted. 

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/r3/004/02_sukemasa.htm

 

[drl]

5 hours ago, SteveM said:

I just saw this one on the Chōshūya site. The koshirae is new-ish, but an excellent bit of lacquer-work, and in outstanding condition. The sword is ubu, and comes with a good provenance. Apologies if this one was already posted. 

 

https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/r3/004/02_sukemasa.htm

 

Thank you, Steve.  Very nice, though not in tachi koshirae.   I don’t see a price or if it’s in stock though, and when I got to the website’s sword listings it isn’t listed.

[SteveM]

I think this is one where you would have to contact the dealer to get pricing information.