my satsuma blade might be older than the mounts

[micah]

so i have shown this wakizashi  in  Previous post but I've never shown really shown the blade really  im not sure it looks  muromachi it has koshisori .Micah

[micah]

[Brian]

You aren't going to get anything from those pics except "It's a sword"
This isn't a science and there is no hard and fast rule. You need shape, hamon and hada to make an educated guess.

 

[micah]

13 minutes ago, Brian said:

You aren't going to get anything from those pics except "It's a sword"
This isn't a science and there is no hard and fast rule. You need shape, hamon and hada to make an educated guess.

 

it has a faint suguha hamon  and the file marks are still on the nakago

[micah]

[ROKUJURO]

Micah,

it is not surprising when a blade is older than the mounts.

As Brian said, these photos do not allow an assessment, at least not for me. Perhaps you could provide some sharp photos of the NAKAGO with close-ups. That might help a bit. Unfortunately, the blade ist not only scratched/sandpapered, but even the SHINOGI has been rounded which is a symptom of very bad/wrong treatment. The same goes for the chips in the MONOUCHI.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I suspect it is a Shinto piece.

[micah]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Micah,

it is not surprising when a blade is older than the mounts.

As Brian said, these photos do not allow an assessment, at least not for me. Perhaps you could provide some sharp photos of the NAKAGO with close-ups. That might help a bit. Unfortunately, the blade ist not only scratched/sandpapered, but even the SHINOGI has been rounded which is a symptom of very bad/wrong treatment. The same goes for the chips in the MONOUCHI.

it also has cuts on the spine i got it like that from Japan  and was not done with sand paper it is way to smooth for that   and most of the  Scratches are even so  either someone attempted to sharpen it or it came from satsuma like that  alot of swords like it have the same finish  from the other rebellion pieces   the nakago was   covered in kanji paper and wood shims 

[chrstphr]

Regardless of the era, someone sanded the entire blade including removing all the patina from the nakago. In my opinion, this one is pretty much ruined and probably not fixable due to the cost outweighing the end worth. 

 

The file marks on the nakago look like the leftover damage from the sanding to remove the patina. 

 

Chris

 

 

[micah]

18 minutes ago, chrstphr said:

Regardless of the era, someone sanded the entire blade including removing all the patina from the nakago. In my opinion, this one is pretty much ruined and probably not fixable due to the cost outweighing the end worth. 

 

The file marks on the nakago look like the leftover damage from the sanding to remove the patina. 

 

Chris

 

 

i dont care about the value at all or  The condition of it not trying to fix it you cant any ways it has been polished to much it is to thin   just want to give a rough  estimate of what era  and the nakago work was  Probably done in the early 19th century because it was  Wrapped in old paper and shimmed i had to take ot off most likely has not been taken off for 100 years or so because it was stuck good  and plus to many forge flaws 

[Bazza]

micah, with all due respects, it is a noble pursuit to try and fully understand what a particular sword is, but in this case I truly think it is a lost cause and not worth the intellectual agony.  I have been down the same road decades ago when I was trying to understand Nihonto, so I appreciate your "need to know"... But (there is always a 'but') might I suggest you keep this sword for what you can see in it and get thee along to a sword collector's show or meeting and get to grips with what good swords in good condition look like.  There are many rocks in the road to appreciating Nihonto and this is one of them.

 

An anecdote from my distant past may be helpful.  I once saw a sword in another collection and desired it, but kept my feeling to myself.  A few years later I looked at it again and said to myself "What on earth did I ever see in that sword??!!"  So, if you decide to keep this sword put it away in the back of a cupboard and look at it again in a few years.  Come back here and tell us your feeling.  Most of us will still be here...

 

BaZZa.

[Dave R]

 

  You call it a "satsuma" sword, and I would have liked to see the mounts to confirm this. My experience and research tells me that "satsuma" style mounts are the mark of a blade considered to be at the end of it's usable life during the era when swords were weapons not collectable. They rarely if ever reward further work, because they were not considered worth the effort, even in an era with numerous polishers and craftsmen to do the job. I do like them, and consider them collectable as is though. But they are not diamonds in the rough with hidden potential.

 You were lucky to be able to remove the hilt, these are known to have sometimes been glued in with resin or lacquer because they were never going to be maintained further.

[micah]

1 hour ago, Dave R said:

 

  You call it a "satsuma" sword, and I would have liked to see the mounts to confirm this. My experience and research tells me that "satsuma" style mounts are the mark of a blade considered to be at the end of it's usable life during the era when swords were weapons not collectable. They rarely if ever reward further work, because they were not considered worth the effort, even in an era with numerous polishers and craftsmen to do the job. I do like them, and consider them collectable as is though. But they are not diamonds in the rough with hidden potential.

 You were lucky to be able to remove the hilt, these are known to have sometimes been glued in with resin or lacquer because they were never going to be maintained further.

i have shown the hilt on here just not the blade in detail here are the pictures again anyway i took some new pics ito is made of linen like some of the other satsuma blades but i  suppose it was quite common for normal blades as well

[micah]

and Bazza i really like the sword even though i have much better one next to it i dont plan to get rid of it even though most people think it is junk  even if it was rusted i would still like it  i own a nice kanbun waki  i would buy another one like it again if i got a chance 

[AntiquarianCat]

Hello Micah, I’m sort of confused as to why you call it a satsuma sword. If you mean the koshirae, it doesn’t look like this has the two holes you would expect from a Satsuma tsuba. It doesn’t look much like a lot of the very fine examples of Satsuma koshirae out there https://yuhindo.com/ishiguro-masayoshi-koshirae/

Did you mean you think the mounts are from the Satsuma Rebellion and that is why they appear crude? If you mean the blade, the following traits are what you could expect from Satsuma work but your sword is too out of polish for such things to be discernible. As friendly advice from one beginner to another, I’d like to say that you’re better off by starting with swords that are in decent polish. It takes collectors with a lot more experience than either of us to size up swords in poor condition and guess on if they’re worth a restoration. Better to hang on to your money for stuff you’ll like more I think.

[Dave R]

 Hiya Juan, this is why I advocate that these swords be referred to as Okashi-to  (loaned swords)rather than Satsuma rebellion pieces. There is already a category of Satsuma style swords, and generally fine swords they are. Why the other type got given the name is one of those bits of history, along with Type 3's, Naval Landing Swords, and Kamikaze daggers..... and probably from the same date and the same reasons.....Post War dealers!

 If you are unfamiliar with the term Okashi-to it refers to swords held in armouries and issued out to lower class Samurai or Ashigaru as and when needed. There are other threads here covering the subject in more detail.

[micah]

13 hours ago, AntiquarianCat said:

Hello Micah, I’m sort of confused as to why you call it a satsuma sword. If you mean the koshirae, it doesn’t look like this has the two holes you would expect from a Satsuma tsuba. It doesn’t look much like a lot of the very fine examples of Satsuma koshirae out there https://yuhindo.com/ishiguro-masayoshi-koshirae/

Did you mean you think the mounts are from the Satsuma Rebellion and that is why they appear crude? If you mean the blade, the following traits are what you could expect from Satsuma work but your sword is too out of polish for such things to be discernible. As friendly advice from one beginner to another, I’d like to say that you’re better off by starting with swords that are in decent polish. It takes collectors with a lot more experience than either of us to size up swords in poor condition and guess on if they’re worth a restoration. Better to hang on to your money for stuff you’ll like more I think.

im not really a  beginner been doing  it for 8 years  just cant read smith names but i know most things  the reason the title is because most satsuma blades i have seen have been made in the same era with there mounts being the same amd never changed because like Dave said they  where  arsenal swords so some where made just for that so some never had diffrent koshirae and was never changed out  like they used the same tsuka over and over again mine might be a old tsuka that was refitted into a  arsenal handle  they seem to be  recycled parts from other parts of swords just thrown together  

[AntiquarianCat]

Thank you Dave, that term is a great deal less confusing. To be honest, I’m fond of Satsuma Koshirae, so I was a bit disappointed when I clicked and found out the Satsuma mounts mentioned in this thread referred to jury-rigged fittings. 
And Micah, seeing as how the blade is so badly out of polish, maybe it wouldn’t hurt to use high quality uchiko here? It might make the hamon a bit more visible. Seeing as how there’s no signature and the nakago has been filed clean, that might be the only way to get more information.  

For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s a muromachi katate-uchi: the examples I’ve seen have a wider mihaba and they have sakisori.

[micah]

2 hours ago, AntiquarianCat said:

Thank you Dave, that term is a great deal less confusing. To be honest, I’m fond of Satsuma Koshirae, so I was a bit disappointed when I clicked and found out the Satsuma mounts mentioned in this thread referred to jury-rigged fittings. 
And Micah, seeing as how the blade is so badly out of polish, maybe it wouldn’t hurt to use high quality uchiko here? It might make the hamon a bit more visible. Seeing as how there’s no signature and the nakago has been filed clean, that might be the only way to get more information.  

For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s a muromachi katate-uchi: the examples I’ve seen have a wider mihaba and they have sakisori.

to be fair all  arsenal swords are  out of polish  not gonna  be a pretty polsh if it was a flawed blade and ment to be used  i know it has a suguha hamon alot of swords dont have   signatures  especially these arsenal blades the blade is curved all the way the nakago follows the sori of the blade  more like koshi sori and it leans back at the habaki when mounted  and the cleaning was most likely done by some one of that period it was coverd in  glue most likely to make the glue stick easy  like Dave said  so does it does not  bother me   i got a fine kanbun waki next to it and  it looks like a chu suguha  similar to my kabun one   but the hamon is  basically gone from to many polishes   so lost a lot of it's  original mass and weight  would  have been wider when it was new spine is pretty thin almost tanto thin so it has lost alot of mass it has hit something hard has a bend at the last 4 inches of the blade from a   diagonal strike  from the look of it and has a cut on the spine  but has been polished out maybe old wound on it  but  it is a flawed blade not trying to fix it you cant 

[chrstphr]

In my opinion, If the cleaning of the nakago was done several hundred years ago, it would have some patina by now even in the tsuka. I expect this cleaning has been in the past 20 years or so by someone not experienced with nihonto. No one back in the period would have a reason to clean the nakago. There isnt any point to cleaning it. Only currently do people think you should sand a sword thats several hundred years old to make it look shiny and new. 

 

I also do not think this is Koto or Muromachi. I think it is later. Not trying to bash the sword, just giving what i see from the photos.  

 

I agree you have nothing to lose opening up a window to see the hamon. 

 

Chris

[micah]

1 hour ago, chrstphr said:

In my opinion, If the cleaning of the nakago was done several hundred years ago, it would have some patina by now even in the tsuka. I expect this cleaning has been in the past 20 years or so by someone not experienced with nihonto. No one back in the period would have a reason to clean the nakago. There isnt any point to cleaning it. Only currently do people think you should sand a sword thats several hundred years old to make it look shiny and new. 

 

I also do not think this is Koto or Muromachi. I think it is later. Not trying to bash the sword, just giving what i see from the photos.  

 

I agree you have nothing to lose opening up a window to see the hamon. 

 

Chris

i ment when the sword was turned into a   arsenal sword  about 144 so years ago  they cleaned off the nakago to make the glue stick better    to the handle and paper i suspect in there  the sword has not been taken of in the past hunderd years im sure the glue was stuck on and no  tampering until I messed  with it   and if this  is not a old blade  it has been polished alot  so much in fact the hamon is almost gone and here are some other  Arsenal and satsuma blades they have almost  identical finish  to mine i suspect it was the norm

[ROKUJURO]

What glue? And where did someone use glue on a sword? 

'Glue' in Japan always was resin or - in most cases - URUSHI.

[chrstphr]

"glueing" as you say is not a reason to remove the patina on the nakago. I suspect the glue is something someone did again not familiar with nihonto and it's more recent. Like in the past 20 years or so.  Someone mucked about with this and it wasnt 100 years ago. 

 

And in Japan, they never clean the furniture, or koshirae. They love patina. Sanding a nakago in Japan wouldnt be considered 144 years ago. Its a huge no no even today. 

 

 

However, this is just my opinion.

 

Chris

[micah]

1 hour ago, chrstphr said:

"glueing" as you say is not a reason to remove the patina on the nakago. I suspect the glue is something someone did again not familiar with nihonto and it's more recent. Like in the past 20 years or so.  Someone mucked about with this and it wasnt 100 years ago. 

 

And in Japan, they never clean the furniture, or koshirae. They love patina. Sanding a nakago in Japan wouldnt be considered 144 years ago. Its a huge no no even today. 

 

 

However, this is just my opinion.

 

Chris

glue would not stick then  when i removed the glue it was like that under it was some type of black tar  i think modern person would use epoxi or modern glue 

[AntiquarianCat]

I’m not sure, I think Usagiya has examples of swords where they filled in black rust pits with red urushi. And my understanding is that those were old patches on old scars so surely they all would have fallen out if patina were ungluable.

 

I have to agree with Chris. There are 1970s shinsakuto with more patina than the naked parts of your nakago. And I doubt glue would have kept it from repatinating in the century and a half since it’s filing. Unless Saigo Takamori was secretly importing Renaissance wax and using it as glue for filed nakagos the cleaning couldn’t have been so old and look so new.
Isn’t it possible that this sword and its glued together fittings could have been done after ww2, for a tourist or something? That would explain why so little patina has regrown.

Also I still think it might be worth using high quality uchiko. Maybe it’s possible the hamon isn’t gone and the reason it’s indiscernible is because the sword is just that badly out of polish. It certainly wouldn’t get it back in polish but maybe it might make the hamon a tad more visible.

[micah]

1 hour ago, AntiquarianCat said:

I’m not sure, I think Usagiya has examples of swords where they filled in black rust pits with red urushi. And my understanding is that those were old patches on old scars so surely they all would have fallen out if patina were ungluable.

 

I have to agree with Chris. There are 1970s shinsakuto with more patina than the naked parts of your nakago. And I doubt glue would have kept it from repatinating in the century and a half since it’s filing. Unless Saigo Takamori was secretly importing Renaissance wax and using it as glue for filed nakagos the cleaning couldn’t have been so old and look so new.
Isn’t it possible that this sword and its glued together fittings could have been done after ww2, for a tourist or something? That would explain why so little patina has regrown.

Also I still think it might be worth using high quality uchiko. Maybe it’s possible the hamon isn’t gone and the reason it’s indiscernible is because the sword is just that badly out of polish. It certainly wouldn’t get it back in polish but maybe it might make the hamon a tad more visible.

i did not say the hamon was gone i said it was almost gone  im not gonna use  uchiko it would ruin the patina i dont think the pictures show but the blade is more black and not really shiny in person  is has a dark hue on it  and cant see the  scratches on the blade in person have to look really close  

[AntiquarianCat]

I apologize if my suggestion was poorly worded. I never suggested using uchiko on what’s left of the nakago. I thought it might be worth a try on the blade itself. They say it’s permissible to uchiko swords that are mostly or totally out of polish so long as you do it with the right methods. It helped with a sword I was told wasn’t worth a polish, I could barely see the hada asides from some patches that were more in polish and after two years of periodically using Robert Benson’s uchiko, the hada is more visible and you can even make out jinie.

Of course it’s your sword so it was just a foolish suggestion on my part so don’t worry about it. If you mean the blade itself though, I haven’t heard of a Japanese blade being out of polish referred to as patina. I think that’s more of a term I have heard used with old knives and European blades.

[micah]

1 hour ago, AntiquarianCat said:

I apologize if my suggestion was poorly worded. I never suggested using uchiko on what’s left of the nakago. I thought it might be worth a try on the blade itself. They say it’s permissible to uchiko swords that are mostly or totally out of polish so long as you do it with the right methods. It helped with a sword I was told wasn’t worth a polish, I could barely see the hada asides from some patches that were more in polish and after two years of periodically using Robert Benson’s uchiko, the hada is more visible and you can even make out jinie.

Of course it’s your sword so it was just a foolish suggestion on my part so don’t worry about it. If you mean the blade itself though, I haven’t heard of a Japanese blade being out of polish referred to as patina. I think that’s more of a term I have heard used with old knives and European blades.

i was talikng about the blade not the nakago   and all of the satsuma blades are out of polish and  Arsenal blades they where for use not being pretty i showed some above just like mine blade at least and the darkening of the blade was most likely from rust 

[AntiquarianCat]

I would wager that most of the soldiers participating in the rebellion brought their family blades, or used weapons seized from the arsenals so no reason to expect them to be in terrible shape. As for Arsenal weapons like Kazu-uchi-mono, there are many that despite being by smiths known to make them, and having the signatures associated with being a bundle sword, still are polished and in good shape. Arsenal weapons can look nice. Or maybe that’s just me since I’m weird and think a lot of katate-uchi, probably even some mass produced ones look nice.

[ROKUJURO]

Useless discussion in my eyes.