Need Details on Gendaito WWII Naval Sword

[bond_fan]

Hi Forum

 

As promised here are the photos of the katana that I had posted in the Translation Assistance section requesting help with the mei translation (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4110&p=30958).

 

I am told this is a naval katana made during WWII. This katana is unlike the typical WWII swords I have seen, because while the saya appears with military ashi

fittings the covering appears to be ray skin and not the material normally seen on WWII saya (KAI-GUNTO - http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/military.htm). The

wrap is not the unusual color I have seen for WWII swords either in that it is a dark blue color, while most WWII swords I have seen are an yellowish color. Perhaps

this is a naval sword with naval saya, but typical civilian blade? Does anyone know the estimated date of manufacture?

 

There are some Japanese characters that are in black on the tang left of the mei and I was wondering what they mean? (See circled area of IMG_0748a.jpg, 2nd post.) The TSUBA,

SEPPA & FUCHI all have the number 251 stamped on them and a Japanese character above the 251 and I was wondering what that meant?

 

I am considering buying it and was wondering if someone could give me an idea what the value is in USD and if it was likely to have been made in the traditonal manner and how one can tell? From what I read about GENDAI SWORDSMITHS AND OTHER SWORDSMITH INDEXES (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/gendai.htm) the smith, Kato Koichi, would have made swords in the traditional manner.

 

I wish to again thank Darcy Brockbank (http://www.nihonto.ca/) and Koichi Moriyama for their help with the mei translation and for the details on the swordsmith, Kato Koichi, the 23rd generation Kanefusa's who was born in 1900.

 

Ref. http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/kanefusa.htm

Noshu Seki ju Ni Ju San Dai Fujiwara Kanefusa saku kore

 

I am not sure if I got the below characteristics correct, so if I made a mistake in my description or terms please let me know. I am just learning about Japanese swords.

Thanks!

 

CHARACTERISTICS

GENERAL APPEARANCE: Medium width and thickness.

 

MEI: Noshu Seki ju Ni Ju San Dai Fujiwara Kanefusa saku kore (The 23rd generation Fujiwara Kanefusa made this)

 

NAGASA: 26 7/8"

 

TSUKA: 10.75"

 

HABAKI: 31.75 mm

 

FUCHI: 15.875 mm

 

Thickness at the habaki: 6.5 mm

 

Thickness at the KISSAKI: 5 mm

 

KISSAKI: O. Shinogi-Zukuri.

 

BOSHI: Omaru

 

HADA: Masami or Muji

 

HAMON: Gunome, Midare or Gunome-Midare.

 

MUNE: Maru

 

NAKAGO: Funagata

 

NAKAGO-JIRI: Haagari

 

YASURIME: Taka-no-ha

 

PS. I will be posting images separate posts to keep the size down.

[bond_fan]

More photos.

[bond_fan]

More photos.

[huntershooter]

I wonder if the kai-gunto saya is original to the sword?

Fuchigashira is a "civilian" type, bamboo motif.

It appears to me that this is not the original saya. I suppose anything is possible though.

It could be the tsuka was added later to the kai-gunto.

Late war expedients could probably be anything.

23rd KaneFusa made both gunto and gendaito. Are there any arsenal stamps (Seki) on nakago?

I can't get most of the attachments to open.

[bond_fan]

There are no arsenal stamps on the nakago, but there is some handwriting (See image below).

 

The kai-gunto fits the saya, though it is tough to push the last part of the katana into the saya.

 

The seller told me this sword was purchased from the son of a U.S. military officer who got this during WWII and that the son had a katana made by a famous swordsmith that was worth a lot of according to a Japanese sword society member that saw both swords. The son kept the valuable sword and sold this kai-gunto to the seller. Based upon the above I believe that this sword and its parts came directly from Japan this way.

[huntershooter]

Still can't open attachment.

From my reading it was common practice for occupying GI's to go and select a katana or two ("war trophy") at a collection point (warehouse).

If your Kanefusa has kai-gunto tsuba in addition to saya, I would venture the tsuka has been added later. If not, I would guess the saya had been taken from a stack of sayas and the sword shoved in it. I have never seen a combination of civilian/military koshirae as you've shown.

It is possible the sword had been assembled in this fashion initially.

23rd KaneFusa was capable of making some nice blades. I have one that has a lovely deep ko-itame hada that is a particular favorite of mine.

[Stephen]

agree the two dont fit each other, saya tsuak, the writing is most likly stocking numbers,,,,something ju san or 13, often seen in red or green or black paint.

[raaay]

HI Bond fan

 

i think you have solved your own mystery, you say the chap who had two swords ?

 

Well someone has mixed the sayas up .

 

As previously mentioned, it's a semi civillian mounted sword from the Showa period, check if you can, in some off the Fuller and Gregory Showa books you will see these mounts are illustrated.

 

Regards

ray

[Brian]

Tim, (Don't forget to sign each post with a name)

I wouldn't concern myself to much with the fittings. As mentioned, they are frequently changed or mixed. Does look like the saya was swapped. Does the saya close completely and smoothly...as it does look like there is a slight gap at the habaki confirming the swap.

Painted nakago numbers are as Stephen said...just arsenal numbers that don't mean anything. Fittings numbers and any stamps are just assembly numbers. It is the blade that counts here.

Read up on nie, and see if you can discern much in the hamon. I think this has a good chance to be a nice handmade blade. It had a good polish at some stage too which shows some hadori finish. Try and look at it in various lighting confitions and see if you can see hada and nie/hataraki.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Kevin]

My guess for what it's worth? It started out as a civilian sword and someone added a kai-gunto saya and tsuba cos it fitted/looked nice/was available and it needed one. It's easier to get a reasonable approximate fit with a military saya than with a tsuka. Usually the efforts I've seen in swapping tsuka have involved a mallet and a cracked or split core.

 

I'd guess, looking at the pics, that the tsuka has had a rebind and quite possibly new same at some point.

 

Kevin

[bond_fan]

Brian said,

It had a good polish at some stage too which shows some hadori finish. Try and look at it in various lighting conditions and see if you can see hada and nie/hataraki.

 

I tried to see if I can see nie/hataraki but it is very hard. I think I can see a little, but for the most part is not as easily seen as most people's swords I have seen on various website. Maybe if it was polished better? Maybe it's just not that visible on this sword?

 

The hada appears to be either masame or muji, but maybe based upon the photos I took someone can see better? I find it hard to get the close-ups I need with my camera lens and even through a 10x jeweler's lope it is hard to see the hataraki. The hataraki looks more like ko-nie or jie nie, though on the bottom small bits look like chikei.

 

According to the seller he bought this katana by someone who had two swords. The other was authenticated by a Japanese Sword society member to be a very early sword made by a famous maker. The seller bought this sword and I don't believe the parts were mixed up. The sword fits very tightly into the saya, but will go all the way. My picture was taken with a bit of the sword showing, because I didn't want to push the blade all the way in as it is hard to remove. Like many are saying the saya probably got mixed up, because it takes more than the left hand thumb to pull the sword from the saya.

 

I'm just wondering if I bought this and had to sell it later if having a WWII saya with a civilian blade, even if high quality will be a hard sell?

 

Thanks for all your help!

Tim

[bond_fan]

Do these images show nie or hataraki consistent with traditional construction methods?

[hillman]

The hamon looks like an oil-quenched one to me, and there's no discernable hada to see. You can usually identify oil-quenching because it gives the sharp peaks in the mahom with mostly nioi, and not much other hataraki like nie, kinsuji, utsuri, etc.

[bond_fan]

Billman said,

The hamon looks like an oil-quenched one to me, and there's no discernable hada to see. You can usually identify oil-quenching because it gives the sharp peaks in the mahom with mostly nioi, and not much other hataraki like nie, kinsuji, utsuri, etc.

 

If oil quenched this would not be a gendaito sword then and less valuable than if it was done with the tradition clay method then?

 

Thanks!

Tim

[Brian]

Yep. Oil quenching was done as an expedient method during WW2 for the semi mass produced blades. There was less chance of breakage and less stress to the blade.

Traditional Nihonto are water quenched which is more risky. Oil tempered Gunto are obviously worth a lot less than traditional Gendaito. However I am not 100% sure this is oil quesnched, so this is just a general guide right now.

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

Try and look at it in various lighting confitions and see if you can see hada and nie/hataraki.

 

At the recent NTHK UK shinsa the judges said that the presence of nie/hatarkari on a showa period blade does not guarantee a sword is water tempered / hand forged. They failed a star stamp gendaito that had a great deal of hataraki and nie as oil tempered at the shinsa.

 

They also said that in judging showa period blades they pay no attention whatsoever to the presence of stamps on the nakago.

[Kevin]

Yep. Oil quenching was done as an expedient method during WW2 for the semi mass produced blades. There was less chance of breakage and less stress to the blade.

Traditional Nihonto are water quenched which is more risky.

 

Hmm! I know that this is the recieved wisdom, but I've always had my doubts, based on having worked in an engineering shop, and having made knives and swords.

 

There are steels that are designed for water quenching. Oil quenching them will produce a substandard edge, no matter how good the steel is. You can take the best steel in the world and bugger it up completely with a bad heat treatment.

 

There are steels designed for oil quenching. Water quenching them will result in warping or breakage. They are commonly used as low distortion tool steels for making cutting tools.

 

There are even steel that air quench, but these are beyond the scope of this post.

 

Now a lot of WW2 smiths showed a competent understanding of metallurgy in the design and manufacture of oil-quenched gunto. True, they weren't making traditional swords - they were however making military weapons and no doubt to the best of their ability. Oil quenching and oil quenched steels had been around a long time by then. I think it unlikely that, under the circumstances, they'd order water-quenching steel stock and then oil quench it, leastways in the pre-war and early days of the war. The very late war is probably another kettle of fish altogether.

 

Of course, if they'd deliberately used oil-quenching stock for various reasons (they may have advantages such as increased wear resistance and enhanced toughness), and were then asked why they didn't water-quench the resulting swords, they'd probably look a bit baffled. "Cos I'll get more breakages if I water-quench" might be a suitable response, particularly if your English isn't up to pointing out that the steel isn't designed to be water-quenched. :-) It then becomes recieved wisdom that they oil-quenched in order to reduce breakages, when in fact they were oil-quenching because that was what that particular grade of steel needed to give of its best and achieve the properties that they were after.

 

BTW, tool steels do not make an inferior replica katana. On the contrary, one I made and tested did the equivalent of chopping a leg off through the bone, with one cut, with no damage to the edge and minimal effect on the polish. They are however not nihonto.

 

Kevin

[Kevin]

Oh, as an afterthought, differences between the hamons of a nihonto and an oil-quenched gunto may not be entirely due (or even majorly due) to oil-quenching. Oil-quenched steels are alloys; some of the ingredients may suppress the grain growth necessary for a typical water-quenched hamon. Some steels may not form a visible hamon at all due to this effect, despite differential hardening. This however is not a fault in the design of the steel or the hardening method - grain growth is designed to be reduced or eliminated in some steels in order to reduce the likelihood of cracking, whereas in others it may be the (desirable) result of designing an alloy that shows increased wear resistance, or hardens to a higher Rockwell, or has an increased degree of through hardening, or has increased toughness, or maybe all combined.

 

It would be interesting to do a survey of the steels used in gunto.

 

Kevin

[bond_fan]

Peter Farrar wrote, "At the recent NTHK UK shinsa the judges said that the presence of nie/hatarkari on a showa period blade does not guarantee a sword is water tempered / hand forged. They failed a star stamp gendaito that had a great deal of hataraki and nie as oil tempered at the shinsa."

 

If what Peter said is true I wonder how then the judges make a determination on a sword then? To me this is almost contrary to what would be needed to determine traditional methods or not, but I don't know, because I'm not a judge.

 

Thanks for the new additional post.

 

Getting more confused...

Tim