Two gunto's for review

[m4l700]

Hi everybody,

 

First of all I would like to say that i'm grateful that I discovered this board. I've been scrolling through some topics for a while now and there are some really educational and informative stuff on the subject. Secondly, I'm still a beginner noobie but always learning. So sorry if I have anything wrong

 

I mainly used to collect german ww2 militaria only. However, since a year or two i've been collecting some Japanese stuff aswell. And since then, especially the blades, it really started to fascinate me. Now I have a large yosegaki flag, officers cap, some medals and three gunto's in my collection, as for the Japanese corner.

 

I'm not sure if this is the right subforum, but I am interested to know your humble opinions on these swords from my collection, I'll write what I know about them, however the question marks I am uncertain about.

 

PS. excuse me for my English, I'm not native

 

#Sword 1 - Shin-Gunto Type 98

Smith: ? Noguchi Kiyomiya Saku(Tohru Noguchi) info-link

Date: probably 1938-39(?) due to early fittings

Nagasa: 64cm

Sori: 1.4cm

Hamon: Gunome Midare(?)

Hada: Hard to tell for me

Stamp: Seki

Fittings: Early fittings with open and gold plated/brass(?) tsuba and parts.

Mon: Sakai mon - silver

Tassel: brown/blue(2nd lieutenant to captain)

Saya: outside from metal and inside wood

Photo's:

 

 

#Sword 2 - Shin-Gunto Type 98 with older blade(?)

Smith: ? Mumei

Date: unknown, however some people suggested that it might be Shinto or Shinshinto period(?)

Nagasa: 65cm

Nakako: 14,5cm (5.70 inch)

Sori: Unknown, but straighter than Sword#1

Hamon: (?) Realy hard to determine

Hada: Hard to tell for me

Fittings: Mid-war fittings with closed and gold plated/brass(?) (cast-iron)tsuba and parts.

Saya: Outside and inside wood, because of the 'older' blade?

Photo's:

 

Thanks in advance for viewing and/or reading !

 

David

 

*Edit, additional photo's for sword 1*

[Mark C]

Hi David,

 

Welcome to a wonderful place.

 

Sword #1

 

 

I believe it's KIYOMIYA, a showa period Gunto smith. Real name Noguchi Tetsu. Born September 6th 1911.

With a Seki stamp there is little chance of there being any Hada BUT there is always exceptions to the rules.

 

Sword#2 

 

I will let the more learned people help you.

 

Regards

[16k]

I personally would say the second blade is more likely Muromachi because Shinto kanbun tends to taper much more towards the tip and the nakago looks quite short too for Shinto. However, that nakago doesn’t look very old, so I’m probably completely off.

[m4l700]

Hi Mark, 16,

 

Thank you for your quick and interesting responses!

 

For sword#1, i've added a few extra pictures witch might be usefull, besides doing some reading in the great 'stamp' thread.

 

For sword#2, The nagako is indeed relative small. I just measured it and it is 14,5cm (5.70 inch)

[george trotter]

Sword 2...(here goes)...tang shape, file marks and hamon look like Mino influence to me. Maybe Aizu Kanesada line who worked shinto through to Meiji (11 gens). I have seen a few of their blades over time and there seems to be a fair number unsigned just like this. The blade here looks a little 'heavier' than I would expect on their work, but who knows. Anyway it looks as if it could be anywhere between c.1700-1900. Hope I'm not too wild in my assessment here...maybe start the discussion anyway.

Regards,

[PNSSHOGUN]

I like sword #1, Mon, good early mounts and classic Seki-To that appears to be well made, perhaps folded a few times then oil tempered.

[vajo]

Sword 2 woud be stunning if polished. Looks very cool. I think George is very close with his estimation.

[m4l700]

It has crossed my mind a few times to search a polisher for sword2. But I just dont know if its worth or not. Might be a tricky one.

[vajo]

Thats allways the question. The worth of a polish must be the decission of the owner. If you ask for the financial worth there are many threads here in the board. I would say no.

 

The nakago is very short to the nagasa. It looks more like a wakizashi nakago then for a katana.

 

This is maybe a Kanesada Wakizashi (no shinsa) 

 

[m4l700]

Interesting. But isn't the nagasa(65cm - 25.59inch) to long for it to be a Wakizashi?

 

*Edit*

 

Hmm, I was doing some reading and I found out about 'one handed fighting sword' blades with a shorter nakago and a nagasa of max 27 inch. The Katate-uchi? Might this be one due to the short nakago but longer nagasa length than a Wakizashi? Just as a suggestion, no idea if that even makes sense   But then again the sori isnt much.

 

Thats allways the question. The worth of a polish must be the decission of the owner. If you ask for the financial worth there are many threads here in the board. I would say no.

 

The nakago is very short to the nagasa. It looks more like a wakizashi nakago then for a katana.

 

This is maybe a Kanesada Wakizashi (no shinsa) 

 

mino-den_waki_sugata_small.jpg

[vajo]

Nagasa is katana size, no question. I have no clue why the nakago is made so short. Maybe it should look like a wakizashi?

[16k]

Interesting. But isn't the nagasa(65cm - 25.59inch) to long for it to be a Wakizashi?

 

*Edit*

 

Hmm, I was doing some reading and I found out about 'one handed fighting sword' blades with a shorter nakago and a nagasa of max 27 inch. The Katate-uchi? Might this be one due to the short nakago but longer nagasa length than a Wakizashi? Just as a suggestion, no idea if that even makes sense   But then again the sori isnt much.

This why I was mentioning Muromachi. Katate Uchi were popular during the Sengoku Jidai where they were easier to use in the press of melee and faster to draw. But after that, lengths went back to normal. Hence the weird impression I got: shape Muromachi but patina much more recent.

[m4l700]

Isn't there a possibility that the nagako might be cleaned? Or attempted to be cleaned over the years? Perhaps even during the war to prepare the nakago for the second mekugi-ana for the gunto fittings/tsuka? It seems to me that the bottom third of the nagako is darker and has more patina than the part above(visible on the last nagako picture of sword#2)?

 

That would explain the patina, however that is ofcourse pure speculation.

Anyway, I can atleast thank you all for staying in the discussion and for the informative answers! Thanks!

 

David

[16k]

Yes, I see what you mean. I’m not qualified enough to tell you if that’s a possibility. Patina sometimes vary on a nakago so it’s not necessarily meaningful. The other thing that bothers me is the first mekugi ana which, generally speaking, is the lowest one. Here, the placement doesn’t make much sense since the sword doesn’t appear to be suriage.

 

This particular part of the board is mainly for WW2 swords, so some of our most knowledgeable members may not have looked at this thread. I would suggest posting pictures of the blade in the Nihonto section. You may have more accurate replies that explains it.

[m4l700]

Thank you for your suggestion. That's indeed a good idea.

 

I'll link both threads together so they are easy to find for each subforum.

 

*Edit*

Sword#2 is also posted here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29164-shin-gunto-with-older-blademumei/