Katsura Eiju (桂永寿) Menuki?

[zanilu]

Dear all NMB members

 

Menuki are not exactly my cup of tea (meaning that I do not know nothing about tosogu, and or menuki even less) but nonetheless I bid for these menuki on yahoo Japan out of a impulse.

 

 

 

I was not really expecting to win the auction though they look nice to mount on a project of mine.

They seems to be made of silver whose black patina in the recesses highlight nicely the recessed regions of the peonies.

 

Looking at the mei it seems to read as Katsura Eiju (桂永寿) but I think they are gimei, given that I win the action with a relatively low bid.

 

I would like to hear some comment from the collector more experienced in menuki than I am.

 

I have learned a lot of terminology about tsuba translating the NBTHK papers I found on the web.

It would be really interesting, from the educational point of view, to put together, with the community help, a description of these menuki like NBTHK would give on its paper.

 

Thank you in advance of any help or comment

 

Regards

Luca

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Luca.

 

I can see why you liked them but I don't think you need to worry about mounting them.  The tanzaku mei should be engraved on separate thin metal plates that are held in place by a tiny metal stitch.  I fear that on yours they are cast in one piece with the post.  I would love to be wrong.  Have a look here,   https://www.aoijapan.com/menuki-tanzaku-signature-tsuchiya/    Note the right hand menuki, back view.

 

All the best. 

[ROKUJURO]

You have probably to remove the mastic/glue to be sure about the way of production.

[Pete Klein]

Geraint - I'm afraid I have to disagree with your appraisal.  On magnification the tanzaku are separate and (poorly) placed by a punch hole around the posts. 

I checked Wakayama and see little resemblance to what is presented there so probably gimei.  

[Geraint]

Dear Pete.

 

Better eyesight than me!  As I said I would be delighted to be wrong and hope that as Jean suggests once the mastic is removed all is good.

 

All the best.

[TETSUGENDO]

Luca,

 

The casting assumption is understandable, considering the state of your menuki.  Careful cleaning may reveal much that is hidden behind the heavy oxidation and "gunk" that appears to be obscuring much of the detail.  Don't be concerned about removing any "patina".....cleaned silver will re-patinate itself in a relatively short time.

 

-S-

[zanilu]

Thank you all for your observations.

 

I will try to clean them by brushing. If this does not work I will try a specific silver cleaner.

Any advice about removing the gunk on the back?

I will try to probe it to see how hard it is.

 

Best regards.

Luca

[TETSUGENDO]

Luca,

 

You can try the methods I list here, from the top down:

 

1-immersion in HOT water.

2-immersion in turpentine.

3-the use of commercial paint thinners and strippers.

4-the mechanical method, avoid the use of metal tools for the prying,etc.

 

Sometimes the Matsuyani based adhesive/filler become rock hard and unyielding to anything but extreme measures, in this case I would seek professional help.  Also, before some take up their pitchforks....note- paint thinners, strippers, should not be used on other alloys unless you KNOW they will not react in an adverse way.  Also, always check progress periodically.

 

-S-

[zanilu]

Thanks Steven you

 

I will try those i the order you suggested.

 

Regards

Luca

[zanilu]

After some time I was able to clean them up.

 

Boiling water softened up the stuff on the back and I was able to removed it with a toothpick. After that I let them soak for a week in nitro thinner and the brushed them.

Sorry for the quality of the pictures I had a little time to take them, however they show the main features of what was under the stuff on the back.

 

To me it look like casting but menuki are not my piece of cake. What is your opinion?

 

Regards

Luca

 

P.S. The front of the menuki was not affected at all by the cleaning process.

[Ganko]

They look like lost wax castings to me.

 

 TomC

[christianmalterre]

despite the fact they look like Tom wrote above ( i agree )

you ruined everything which would eventually give a feeling of age and naturally grown patina.

Bravo!

 

they look like plastic!

 

Christian

[vajo]

Why you do that Luca? Now you can throw them in a liter box.

 

That was fine looking menuki good for mounting. 

[Frank B]

They look cast to me.

[Ford Hallam]

In my opinion this was a good learning experience. These are modern cast fakes. Now that the fake instant patina and very suspicious pitch from the back has been removed the truth is glaringly evident.

[zanilu]

Christian, Chris.

 

As I have said the patina and appearance of the front side have not changed a bit in the cleaning process. So no damage done on that side.

 

I am always careful and avoid cleaning any of the item in my collection. Just a little bit of choji oil on iron tsuba when needed and some Renaissance wax in the worst cases.

 

The advice of Steven made perfect sense since to determine the nature of the menuki (real or reproduction) was needed before further analysis.

 

Following the advice of Steven I have removed the stuff on back to see how the menuki was made. The tanzaku-mei is integral with the rest of the menuki. It is most probably a wax casting copy as said by Tom.

 

As said by Ford the first thing was to prove that the menuki are a fake or not.

 

Anyway thei will be mounted on a iaito, as originally intended.

 

Regards

Luca

[Brian]

I agree with Luca and Ford. It does not help to put blinkers on and ignore the obvious. Finding out if they were real or not was the goal, and accomplished.
If they were real, no major hard would have been done. As it is, we all learned a lesson. These were made to deceive. The pitch was added to hide the signs. Now we know. Sorry Luca, but at least we all learned.

[Tanto54]

Dear Luca,

 

Who was the seller on Yahoo Japan?  There are a number of sellers there selling obvious fakes, but it would be nice to know who else to avoid.  Anyone selling these would almost surely know they were fake... 

[zanilu]

Brian the original purpose of the acquisition was to mount, the menuki are fine for that purpose... And learning something is always worth it!

 

Yes George it was on Yahoo Japan and I can post the name of the seller, but I do not know the polices of NMB about it. I can do it Brian?

 

Regards

Luca

[Brian]

Yes, in the interests of seeing if this was a once-off, or if he is a repeat offender. If these sold cheap, and knowing the tricks Yahoo has to cancel auctions..maybe he didn't know.

[zanilu]

Ok.

 

The name of the seller is: lalasilverjp

 

With hindsight the name was prophetic!

 

Luca

[Brian]

I agree.
https://www.facebook.com/lalasilver.vn/
I think you have a Vietnamese silver merchant/silversmith plying his trade in Japan.

[Tanto54]

I've found the originals that Luca's forgeries were probably made from.  See below (study them closely - they are turned differently, but they are exactly the same).  I've described the process of vulcanized rubber mold copying and lost wax casting of modern copies here before (see lost wax entries below the sand casting entries).    

 

Interestingly, in this case the forger used a different signature on the back (easy to change in the wax state).

 

Original:

 

Luca's Copy:

 

Original Back:

 

Luca's Copy Back:

 

The seller of the original is samurai77ki on Yahoo Japan.  Brian already did the detective work in discovering the jeweler making and selling the forgeries, but he would have had these originals to make his rubber molds.

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Luca,

 

Good job on removing all the "gunk" and revealing the truth, they are castings.  Now that there is no longer any uncertainty you can proceed appropriately, they should look fine mounted on your iaito!   BTW, for all those in doubt cleaning solid silver alloy items, if necessary as in this case does not "ruin" them.  As I had mentioned, cleaned silver will naturally acquire a patina without any intervention.

 

-S-