Need Help Translating Juho-Token-Kenkyukai Paper

[DUTCHMN]

Hi, this is my first post to this forum and I am glad that forums like these exist as they help people out greatly in their search for answers to the many questions that people run into during their journey to find the right Nihonto.

 

I was in Japan earlier this year and as part of that trip, I kept my eye open for a Katana that spoke to me. I game along a particular Katana in Kyoto that I loved but unfortunately the people that worked at the shop at the time did not spoke any English so I wrote down the details so I could contact them later which I did upon my return.

 

I am still contemplating buying the sword but it comes at a significant price which I am willing to pay if it wasn't for some concerns that I have.

 

The sword does not come with origami by one of the major Japanese sword study associations (NBTHK or NTHK). Instead it has papers from Juho-Token-Kenkyukai. I found more information on these papers from http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/659-kantei-paper/

 

I was hoping that someone could help me translating these papers. Thanks in advance!

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is info about the signature so you know the smith(s)

 

藤太安吉真十五枚甲伏作之 - Tōta Yasuyoshi shin jūgo-mai kōbuse saku (last part is a rare inscription indicating making blade in kobuse with 15 times folded steel)

越後士大村加卜?之 - Echigo-shi Ōmura Kaboku ? Kore

 

I think I found the sword you are talking about, as it is such rare inscription. Now I am not too big on these new Edo period smiths but I would be cautious with this one.

 

All examples from Ōmura Kaboku that I can find are signed 越後幕下士 Echigo Bakkashi and this is signed 越後士 Echigo-shi. I'd guess the signature would maybe show this as a joint work of Ōmura Kaboku and his student Tōta Yasuyoshi. If you are a dealer in Japan and you have a sword by jō-saku smith and chūjō-saku student, you wouldn't really let the blade have (financially worthless) JTK papers when you could have NBTHK papers for this if it is legitimate. Japanese dealers who sell a lot of swords know pretty much better than anyone how the attribution & papers will affect to price. So if you see blades with old NBTHK papers or JTK papers etc. sold in Japan (and elsewhere too) be skeptical.

 

I would recommend taking things slow. I see you are located in Minneapolis and fellow board member Joe recently put up Midwest sword club (Minneapolis): https://www.jsc-mw.com/I would recommend hooking up with some local Midwest collectors and they will offer great help to you. I know Grey is also located in Minnesota: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/ You have plenty of great guys around your area who can help you to get a good sword for you.

[DUTCHMN]

Hi Jussi,

 

First of all thank you so much for your fast and elaborate reply, very useful! I also like the reference to the follow board members here in the Midwest, including the sword club, didn't know that existed here. Joe already reached out to me.

 

Regarding the sword, I am impressed with your knowledge and ability to translate because it matches what the store said. It first they claimed it was a sword by Ōmura Kaboku but later they came back and said that it was made by one of his disciple and therefore a utsushi. (copy)

 

The struggle I have is whether I go for a sword that really spoke to me or one that came from a great sword smith with great history. I guess the big concern I have is the price of the sword as you can see from the pictures in the store. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems way to high if it was made by his disciple rather than himself.

 

I apologize for not having great pictures but I wasn't able to communicate with the store owner for him to take the sword out so I could take detailed pictures of the blade. Is this the same sword that you found?

 

[mywei]

I think it's quite difficult to come across shoshin Kaboku work on the market. If your heart is set on the blade, especially at the prices they are asking,perhaps you could ask for a hozon guarantee from the dealer?

[SteveM]

越後士大村加卜焠之

 

I think in most sword signatures 焠 is read as yaku (per Markus' post of January of this year). 

 

I find the explanation a bit difficult to translate. It clearly says "copy" (写 - utsushi) on both papers, and yet the explanation is somewhat vague, and I almost wonder if they are being purposefully vague, or if it is just my inability to translate what they have said. The first sentence describes the smith Ōmura Kaboku, who is a well-known smith. The second sentence describes the blade. The third sentence is where my Japanese skills fail me. 

 

"Being a physician by trade (note: talking about Kaboku here), this smith produced works unique from other swordsmiths, and it is believed that due to his popularity, this sword was requested from a latter smith who accepted the order."

 

I'm open to better, more accurate translation if anyone wants to take a crack. So the explanation is rather confusing. Tōta Yasuyoshi is a student of Kaboku. The certificate proclaims the mei as genuine. So was this a sword made by the student, in the style of the master, at the request of a third party? If so, the explanation is frustratingly unclear on this. Or, was this a sword which was made by the student, and hardened (as indicated by the 焠 kanji) by the master. In other words, a type of gassaku (collaboration). However, if this were the case I don't know why they would proclaim it as a copy and not proudly state it as a gassaku. Or, maybe in their own cryptic way, that is what they are trying to do. In any event, the paper is slightly problematic. I don't doubt these people know more than I do about swords, but it begs the often repeated question: if this sword is genuine, why not submit for the most widely-recognized and respected authentication papers?

[mywei]

I hadn't looked at the papers properly before, but Steve brings up a valid point about the explanation on the paper. It states that this work was in their opinion made by 'later smiths to satisfy requests and orders' for Kaboku works.

 

I guess the paper is attesting that this blade is a utsushi or forgery of Kaboku?

[SteveM]

Well the blade says "made by Tōta Yasuyoshi" and "hardened by Kaboku".

The paper says the mei is shoshin, so I assume they are attesting to (at least) the blade being made by Tōta. But this is part of my confusion. If the mei is authentic, the explanation seems unusually coy. If the blade is a complete copy of a Tōta + Kaboku work, they shouldn't be describing it as shoshin. 

 

Oh, I forgot to mention, the shop in Kyoto that was selling this says that it has now been sold. So it may be a moot point for DUTCHMN - who, I take this opportunity to remind, should sign posts with a real first name as per forum rules. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Steve explained very nicely the problems that there seems to be with signature & these papers combined. I only glimpsed through the papers quickly as I tried to focus on the signature as longer texts in Japanese are difficult.

 

1,2M Yen is a lot of money. Of course people have different tastes and some swords just seem right for you. However I would look around a bit as you have wide variety of available options with so large budget.

[DUTCHMN]

I think it's quite difficult to come across shoshin Kaboku work on the market. If your heart is set on the blade, especially at the prices they are asking,perhaps you could ask for a hozon guarantee from the dealer?

 

Hi Matt, with Hozon Guarantee do you mean having them send it in for a shinsa?

[mywei]

Yep, with NBTHK

[DUTCHMN]

Yep, with NBTHK

Yes I had suggested that to the store but they said that since they know it is an utsushi, it would be a waste of money

[DUTCHMN]

Well the blade says "made by Tōta Yasuyoshi" and "hardened by Kaboku".

The paper says the mei is shoshin, so I assume they are attesting to (at least) the blade being made by Tōta. But this is part of my confusion. If the mei is authentic, the explanation seems unusually coy. If the blade is a complete copy of a Tōta + Kaboku work, they shouldn't be describing it as shoshin. 

 

Oh, I forgot to mention, the shop in Kyoto that was selling this says that it has now been sold. So it may be a moot point for DUTCHMN - who, I take this opportunity to remind, should sign posts with a real first name as per forum rules. 

My apologies Steve for missing that forum rule. The sword was reserved by me so I wonder if they claim it was sold because I had an hold on it but I am afraid you might be right and it the sword is gone.

 

Dries

[DUTCHMN]

I contacted the store and they confirmed they still have the sword

[DUTCHMN]

I negotiated them down to JPY900000  (roughly $8000) from JPY1250000. I would have preferred to pay half of that but they are not likely to come down further. I am going to ask and see if they are willing to get a NBTHK Hozon.

[Katsujinken]

You can do much better for $8000, I think. Please consider this very carefully. I find the store’s response re: NBTHK and utsushi suspect.

[PNSSHOGUN]

You can get much better sword for that money, take things slow and view your options. You could get a nice daisho for that money.

[Brian]

You can get a lot for $8000.
Not endorsing anything in particular, but there are some great offers in our own For Sale section, such as the Hizen-to by Ray Singer and the Nio Kiyotsuna also by Ray...and others have some great deals too.

[Mark]

and members here have some nice swords for sale (as Brian noted Ray's are good) you could also check Grey's website http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/Swords he has a bunch of great swords, most papered already, for less than 8k. Grey is well known here and reliable. Not only is he in the U.S. he is in the same state as you so you can probably check them out in hand instead of buying internationally

[DUTCHMN]

You can do much better for $8000, I think. Please consider this very carefully. I find the store’s response re: NBTHK and utsushi suspect.

I agree that it sounds suspicious but the store is Tozando in Kyoto, a well known store is it not?

[Katsujinken]

I agree that it sounds suspicious but the store is Tozando in Kyoto, a well known store is it not?

I love Tozando for modern budo supplies, but their selection and pricing of antique swords has never impressed me. It's not their speciality or the main thrust of their business.

 

Please take the advice in this thread to heart.

[DUTCHMN]

I love Tozando for modern budo supplies, but their selection and pricing of antique swords has never impressed me. It's not their speciality or the main thrust of their business.

 

Please take the advice in this thread to heart.

Thank you and yes I do take it to heart, hence I am asking questions here with people that clearly know what they are talking about before me acting upon anything. It is great that boards like these exists

[Katsujinken]

Thank you and yes I do take it to heart, hence I am asking questions here with people that clearly know what they are talking about before me acting upon anything. It is great that boards like these exists

Then you're already ahead of the curve. :-)

 

Most folks pay dearly for their nihonto education early on. As others mentioned, there are very trustworthy folks here who can guide you to a purchase you won't regret.