New Katana - Not Sure What I Have Here?

[FletchSan]

Hi All,

 

I picked this up today and would like some guidance as to what period and school it may be. It doesn't appear to be koto based on the sugata though does have utsuri. The hada is clearly visible and it has a nice straight hamon.

 

It is mumei though at the base of the nakago seems to have a signature / stamp though i can't make it out. Has anyone seen this done before?

 

It seems to be in reasonable polish and very healthy. No idea about the fittings and what was original to the sword though it all fits together very nicely.

 

Nagasa is 66.5cm.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looks late koto maybe muromachi, osuriage katana. It's not worth much, but my best guess would be sue bizen. I'm likely wrong since the pics and polish isn't allowing me to see much (I'm sure others will see more).

[Stephen]

Nice pick up, only needs ito work and your good to go. maybe stateside shinsa, my guess is koto also

[nagamaki - Franco]

My guess would be a later copy of an earlier sword, shinshinto or even later. Surely someone recognizes the symbol on the nakago-jiri? 

[custodian]

My guess would be a later copy of an earlier sword, shinshinto or even later. Surely someone recognizes the symbol on the nakago-jiri? 

I'm not all that good with comparing calligraphy, but shouldn't the mark be viewed this way?

 

[Stefan]

Very nice find ! A good Koto blade.

[FletchSan]

I tried to get a clearer image of the mark - though not sure if this is the right way around or not.

 

Also tried to get a clearer image of the hada and boshi.

 

Other than the sugata, what else do you think points to a later copy Franco?

To be honest, It did feel different to my other koto swords - a bit heavier and seems to have had less polishes in its lifetime.

 

A few more measurements

 

Nagasa                  66.5cm

Sori                        1.3cm

Width (motohaba): 3cm

kasane                   0.7cm

kissaki                    5cm

 

 

Could the kanji be this?

 

寺

 

Apparently translates to Buddhist temple?

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

 

Other than the sugata, what else do you think points to a later copy Franco?

 

 

 

 

Jitetsu just doesn't look koto to my eyes, and neither do the nakago file marks nor the color of the rust sway me away from these thoughts. 

[SwordGuyJoe]

If it's osuriage, wouldn't the yasurime look newer? The yasurime pattern/rust coverage changes about a cm above the lower mekugi-ana, which you'd expect to see in a katana that was cut down. Just my opinion.

[Stephen]

better shot of nakago below bottom hole please, see what she looks like before relocation of machi's

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Might anybody confirm/deny my bad feeling about kissaki shape ?

Lower mekugiana drilled not punched...

[FletchSan]

More detailed photos of the nakago as requested.

[Stephen]

ok i think they are org to blade machi used to be just above top hole

 

Carlo in the second pic of first batch, does it look off there as well? not as much as the latter that looks way out of proportion   to blade and ji

[FletchSan]

In the later pic of the kissaki I was angling the sword to try and get the light to hit the boshi which may explain why it looks a little odd.

 

This is a scan of the kissaki which shows the proportions more accurately.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Ben,

 

If you measured from the mune-ha/machi to the width of 3 fingers above the bottom mekugiana, how long would this sword have been?
 

[FletchSan]

Hi Franco,
 

If I measure 3 finger widths above the bottom mekugiana to the tip of the sword it is 75cm.

[FletchSan]

Another interesting feature of the sword is that there appears to be two parallel utsuri also in the shinogi-ji that show up as a parallel mist as you run a light across the blade. I've tried to capture this in a photo & video.

 

Does this help place the sword in either a period or school?

[Jim P]

Hi Ben, IMHO. I think Franco has it right, shin-shinto or possibly later Jitetsu looks shinshinto? and overall does not have that late koto look to me and I don't think its old koto so that leaves shin-shinto copy of older blade ? and if it was about 75cm when it was original is also in line with shin-shinto   but that's just going on the pics. Carlo, I also think the kissaki has been reshaped maybe to fix a chip in the boshi ?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Carlo in the second pic of first batch, does it look off there as well? not as much as the latter that looks way out of proportion   to blade and ji

 

Might be the angle the pic was take  mislead me... Still seems a little "off" to me.

[SAS]

Kantei from photos is tough, but I would go for koto, maybe Muromachi time frame. Maybe the kanji stamped on the nakagojiri was from the smith who did the suriage, but I have not seen other examples of that.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Maybe the kanji stamped on the nakagojiri was from the smith who did the suriage...

 

That's what I was thinking too.  Could be one off the Jumyo's or one of the Hamabe "Toshi.." smiths.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Ben,

 

The difficulty here is not having the sword in hand along with the current state of polish. Which doesn't reveal much, leaving open all possibilities at this point. Could we see images from above showing munemachi and kissaki?

 

Ty.

[FletchSan]

Here are pics taken above the munemachi and kissaki.

 

Assuming that it is Shinshinto or later, I have a few questions.

 

1. Would the intention of the smith be to deceive to make the sword appear to be Koto or would it be a homage to a Koto sword?

    I would have thought that if it a smith was making a copy that they would keep it ubu and not osuriage as that is a lot of effort for what are reasonably common and inexpensive swords (mumei osuriage Koto).

    [EDIT: Just read in another topic that this did occasionally occur given the resurgence of smiths making swords in the Koto style during the Shinshinto period. Interesting and may answers Q2]

 

2. Why did they shorten Shinshinto swords?

3. If it is a homage, could it have been a temple offering given the Kanji on the nakagojiri looks like the character for temple? 寺

 

4. Any clues in the koshirae mons or Tsuba? (Obviously later than the sword though they fit the sword well and may have some relevance). 

[Brian]

Don't translate kanji literally.
It has nothing to do with temple. What it is, is unknown. But certainly nothing to do with an offering.

[Stefan]

Two Utsuri ?

I do not think so. It is either a problem of the polish or the  result  of the construction of the blade. In my point  of vie the first one is the case.

Often one  finds "utsuri" near the shinogi. In those cases the  lazy polisher did not  use the  jitsuya enough near the shinogi in fear to disturb it.

A similar effect is true in the  cases of the migaki-ji in the shinogiji.

I ve seen this many times.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for additional images. 

 

A few more measurements

 

Nagasa                  66.5cm

Sori                        1.3cm

Width (motohaba): 3cm

kasane                   0.7cm

kissaki                    5cm

 

This sword has been polished down some, was hoping the additional images might tell more. My thoughts are moving towards Shinto at this point. I do think that this sword would look considerably different/better with a 'good polish.'

 

 

 

 

Assuming that it is Shinshinto or later, I have a few questions.

 

1. Would the intention of the smith be to deceive to make the sword appear to be Koto or would it be a homage to a Koto sword?

    I would have thought that if it a smith was making a copy that they would keep it ubu and not osuriage as that is a lot of effort for what are reasonably common and inexpensive swords (mumei osuriage Koto).

    [EDIT: Just read in another topic that this did occasionally occur given the resurgence of smiths making swords in the Koto style during the Shinshinto period. Interesting and may answers Q2]

 

2. Why did they shorten Shinshinto swords?

 

4. Any clues in the koshirae mons or Tsuba? (Obviously later than the sword though they fit the sword well and may have some relevance). 

 

1) The copying of other/earlier swords has been going on for ages, and unless there is the presence of a sketchy mei involved deception doesn't really enter the equation. 

 

2) Swords are shortened for any number of reasons, anyone's guess or speculation. 

 

4) Looks like Owari style fittings, tsuba???, Tokugawa mon, relevance???

[Stefan]

Why to shorten  an shinshinto blade. Well it must look like koto simply in order to achieve an higher selling price.

I did have  the honour  to handle an Hosoda Naomasa ( brother  of Kajihei ) blade. For the  untrained eye ? Wow ! Nambokucho three times shortend. The  Saya-Gaki did say "Chogi". A forgery in the sweetest Soden-style.

Nevertheles, a good blade.

[Jean]

But not quite upto Chogi's work...

[Stefan]

But not quite upto Chogi's work...

Naturally not, but nevertheless  it has been  a fine blade.

[FletchSan]

Thanks for the comments all - looks like this one may remain a bit of a mystery. Not sure its worth a polish though will enjoy it as is for a while and get the Tsukamaki done.

 

cheers,

 

Ben