Question to this Tsuba

[AndreasU]

Hello board,

 

first of all seasons greetings. It is really cold at the moment here in germany and we hope to have some snow on christmas day

 

I just bought this Tsuba at ebay tonight and would like to have some oppinions. Especially I would like to know what he nbthk paper is saying.

 

And last of all, what is the value of it.

 

thanks in advance

 

Andreas

[Martin]

Andreas,

 

how do you think it is possible to dermine the value of a piece?

Apart from evidently very rare and well known pieces this is a very subjective decision IMHO.

So for you this piece should have a value of 787 USD :D

For others maybe less, maybe more

 

The most important thing should be that you can enjoy it !!

 

best,

Martin

[AndreasU]

:D Hi Martin, you got me :D

 

What I want to figure out is if it was a realistic deal as I have no, nada, zero knowledge of Tsubas. I just tried to go the save way and take the first one with papers to avoid to get a replica or pure overpriced crap.

In "real" money it is "just" € 565,-- so not a bargain but when I check other sites with NBTHK Tsuba offers it seems a very reasonable price.

 

So even it is stated as a Daito Tsuba, I will use it for my wakizashi as it is a very huge blade and I think it will match perfect. Also it si a very clasic Theme that can be combined with several other Themes. Now some Fuchi Kashira are missing. Would like to get some with Dragon theme....

 

Happy X-Mas to everybody

[Brian]

Interesting tsuba. Is the surface finish trying to emulate leather?

Looks like a tachi tsuba to me though? But the placement of the large seppa would interfere with the motiff...so not sure about that. Could be a handachi tsuba?

As for value..we would all love someone to say "it is worth double what you paid for it" but that is not going to happen unless someone has a mythical value book somewhere that they are not sharing :D

Today it is worth $787..since someone paid that for it (you)

Tomorrow it could be worth $200 or $1500. All depends on who wants it on the day and who is paying. Enjoy it.

 

Brian

[AndreasU]

Hmm, interesting argument,

 

So do you think it will not look realistic with a wakizashi even it is a masive one? I thought there are no general rules? The Habaki height of my wakizashi in this area where the tsuba will be attached is 3.3cm or 1.3" the handle is 2,6cm or 1.02". So it should fit quite well.

 

The surface looks indeed like leather. Thats what triggered me for this Tsuba!

Interestingly also because the motif is "wild pig eyes" and surface in leather, quite funny combination.

 

Could not figure out if it is a forged one or a cast tsuba....... Some details of the tsuba makes me feel it is a cast one because they are a bit washed out, but on the other hand if it would be a cast one i doubt they had that fine sand to reproduce the fine leather detail...

[Brian]

If it is indeed such a large and sturdy wakizashi, then why not consider putting it into handachi mounts? I think that might suit it quite well.

The boar's eye is more a symbol than an actual representation of a wild pig's eye of course

Take a look at the (modern) offerings here to see what they look like:

http://www.hyper-cafe.com/html/Category-8-0.html

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

(On envelope in red: 特別貴重　tokubetsu kichou = Of special value)

 

1st line, right, & on envelope in black: 認定書　Ninteisho = Certificate of Authenticity

 

1. ？？, 梵字鍔　bonji tsuba = Tsuba with Sanskrit lettering

Faintly, bottom right... 鉄地木瓜形 Tetsuji mokko-gata = iron ground, mokko shape

Faint, bottom... 四方猪目造　shiho inome zukuri = made with boar's eye designs in the four directions

Faint bottom left... ??

Dark line 3&4: 右は当協会に於いて審査の結果特別貴重 migi ha to-kyoukai ni oite tokubetsu kicho

小道具として認定する　kodougu toshite ninteisuru

= As a result of this organization' investigation, we certify that what is described on the right is an especially valuable ko-dou-gu.

5th line: 昭和三十八年十一月十三日　13th Dec Showa 38 (1963)

6th line: ?? 日本美術刀剣保存協会　Nihon Bijutsu To-ken Hozon Kyokai

7th: 会長　細川　？　？ Kaicho Chairman Mr ...?... Hosokawa

Final line: 谷崎？？殿　(Addressed to) Mr ...?... Tanizaki

 

That's about all I can get off the top of my head! :D

[AndreasU]

Uurgs,

 

No way to have a handachi mounting ever! Today we would say "pimp my sword"

of course it's a question of taste but I like more to have an uchigatana/buke zukuri style mounting.

 

Andreas

[AndreasU]

Hey, thanks a lot for your translation!

 

So it seems it is a quite good tsuba.

[AndreasU]

as there are no mimis on this tsuba, would that prevent it for a use on a wakizashi? or is there again no rule? I have read somewhere that on a wakizashi everytime these mimis where placed for the kozuka?

 

Question is, was there everytime a Kozuka with a wakizashi........

[Nobody]

A few supplements to the translation:

 

[Description of the tsuba]

独鈷梵字鐔 (dokko bonji tsuba) – tsuba with vajra and bonji (Siddhrm script) motif

鉄地木瓜形 (tetsu-ji mokko-gata) – iron ground, mokko-shape

四方猪目透 (shiho inome sukashi) – inome (boar’s eye) sukashi on the four corners

無銘 (mumei) - unsigned

 

 

BTW, the last two names are;

細川護立 (Hosokawa Moritatsu) and 谷崎正彦 (Tanizaki Masahiko).

[Brian]

Andreas,

 

Mimi is a rim on a tsuba. I think you are meaning the kogai and kozuka hitsu ana?

Nope..kozuka and/or kogai are not always present. Often found, yes...but not every time. I do feel this is a handachi tsuba though, am I wrong?

With papers..it may be a good one to display and look for a more traditional wakizashi tsuba for mounting....but that is just my opinion

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Hi Andreas, You say no mimi which is a rim on the outside of the tsuba, ears. I guess you mean no hitsuana. Most small swords have an accompanying tousogu but no rule. I think this tsuba is totally unsuitable for a shoto, but it is your taste and up to you. It has to do with the aesthetic balance in daisho as well as effect. Most people who practice iaido find wearing daisho for the first time after practice with only the daito quite a change and can require adjustment of technique. I find the smaller the profile the shoto has the easier to adjust. Again, a matter of taste. John

[AndreasU]

Yes I mean hitsu ana but was guided with mimi as it means "ears" and the cutouts for the kozuka looks like ears :D

Forgive me master :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

A few supplements to the translation:

 

[Description of the tsuba]

独鈷梵字鐔 (dokko bonji tsuba) – tsuba with vajra and bonji (Siddhrm script) motif

鉄地木瓜形 (tetsu-ji mokko-gata) – iron ground, mokko-shape

四方猪目透 (shiho inome sukashi) – inome (boar’s eye) sukashi on the four corners

無銘 (mumei) - unsigned

 

BTW, the last two names are;

細川護立 (Hosokawa Moritatsu) and 谷崎正彦 (Tanizaki Masahiko).

 

Thank you that Moriyama san. As always, I learn something. I was afraid you might be away on holiday, so I stepped in to provide a temporary bridge. 下の名前 are surprisingly hard for me.

 

By the way, can you make out the three? characters above 'Nihon Bijutsu To-ken Hozon Kyokai'?

[AndreasU]

Hmm,

 

suitable or not, we are talking about dimensions?

Some pictures of tsubas I was interested in that were described to be for wakizashi:

 

The first one was my absolute favorite!! But unfortunately I got outbid...

[Nobody]

By the way, can you make out the three? characters above 'Nihon Bijutsu To-ken Hozon Kyokai'?

The characters are “財團法人 (zaidan-hojin) – incorporated foundationâ€.

 

But you do not have to manage to read them. Most parts of the paper were fixed format and you can find the explanations for them on the net such as the page below (though there are some misunderstandings).

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html

[John A Stuart]

Hi Andreas, Again there is no hard fast rule. My tsuba for shoto consistently run under 7 cm along any axis. Those you picture seem awfully large, some dimensions over 8 cm, to be classified as not daito tsuba. Perhaps others can add their voices on this. John

 

Oh, I forgot to add. The nakagoana of 2.87 cm would fit swords of daito size. J

[Bugyotsuji]

By the way, can you make out the three? characters above 'Nihon Bijutsu To-ken Hozon Kyokai'?

The characters are “財團法人 (zaidan-hojin) – incorporated foundationâ€.

 

But you do not have to manage to read them. Most parts of the paper were fixed format and you can find the explanations for them on the net such as the page below (though there are some misunderstandings).

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html

 

Silly me. A nice page link you have provided there. Thanks!

[dkirkpatrick]

Andreas,

 

I confess, I too know little about tsuba and tosogu as a whole for that matter. I want to say though that I think this is really an attractive piece. The raised line line inside the rim, the leather wrinkles and stippling is very unique, and the very spartan use of motif makes this a quietly powerful and interesting piece. It's understated beauty seems more in keeping with the Japanese and samurai tradition of austerity and I find it a much more appealing piece than the ones you posted and were outbid on. The marketplace may be of a different opinion but I believe you did very well on your purchase. At the end of the day, all that matters is that you love it but I know it's nice to hear assurances from others, if only to give faith to your own tastes. I thinks it's beautiful, congratulations.

 

Doug

[AndreasU]

Thanks Doug,

 

this was the answer I expected

 

I printed the Tsuba on paper and cutted it to see if it is soooooo awful to big.

 

No, it isn't! As I said the blade is quite massive and it fits really nice. The measurement from hamachi to munemachi is 3,2 cm!

 

I agree as a Daisho it makes no sense but it was forged around 1750 so it is more likely that this sword was forged for a rich trader than for a samurai. So as it was than the only sword he was allowed to wear it is possible that it was mounted with care to give the best protection.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Andreas,

 

I do feel this is a handachi tsuba though, am I wrong?

 

Brian

 

no, this is handachi style.

[AndreasU]

Hi Franco,

 

that's interesting. Can you define the basic rules which makes a tsuba a handachi tsuba?

 

I would like to understand these basic things......

[nagamaki - Franco]

Han-dachi Koshirae:

A style of Koshirae which is a mixture of both the Uichigatana and Tachi Koshirae, is known as Han-dachi (half Tachi). Very popular during the Bakamatsu (end of the Edo period) this is worn in the style of Katana and not Tachi, but would retain a number of the metal Saya mounts and would also have a Kurigata.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/mounts.htm

 

research tachi tsuba

[remzy]

Interesting tsuba. Is the surface finish trying to emulate leather?

 

That is totaly what i was seeing the very second i saw it.

[docliss]

Is not the character at the top of this tsuba the bonji (a modified sanskrit character) representing the Boddhisatva Ashuku, one of the five Gods of Wisdom and Contemplation?

John L.

[Bugyotsuji]

Is not the character at the top of this tsuba the bonji (a modified sanskrit character) representing the Boddhisatva Ashuku, one of the five Gods of Wisdom and Contemplation?

John L.

 

You might very well be right, John. My first thought was that it was the character for Om, or Aum, the original sound.

[AndreasU]

Yes, it is the character. What is special with this??

This is the sellers explanation:

 

The Mokko-gata iron Tsuba is decorated with

Sukidashi-bori carving, four corner heart shaped openwork ( Inome-Sukashi ), on Ishime-ji, design of Dokko ( Vajira ) and Hudo-Myo-Ou ( write by the Sanskrit ),

defeating against evils.

 

 

@nagamaki

 

*deleted by admin*

I know very well what a handachi koshirae is (pimp my sword :D ) . The question is: what makes a tsuba part of a handachi koshirae that you can state it is clearly with this tsuba?

 

Your text reference is not explaining this.

[John A Stuart]

Hi, The mantra 'On akishubiya un' starts with the sound om or aum, and ends with hum sound. This is to Ashuka Nyorai. The sanskrit for 'hum' is what is on the tsuba. I can't put sanskrit in text, but here is a scan of a page I printed.