My Friends Gunto Looking To Identify As Much Info As Possible

[Nihontocollector19]

http://tinypic.com/r/14abqyq/9

 

http://tinypic.com/r/2a8glqs/9

 

http://tinypic.com/r/30rw38n/9

 

we thinking it might be a large crew gunto

[Stephen]

maybe post some pic of nakago here, not on tiny popup heavy site!

[Nihontocollector19]

sorry didn't see the option to attach pictures

[Stephen]

more reply options

[Stephen]

its late im not sleeping...  ...looks like a power tool mei...good night 

 

[Nihontocollector19]

mounts

[SteveM]

Agree the mei looks bad. It looks like gibberish - 美集団作 or 義集団作 either way it makes not sense. The bit to the left, 十芳 (jū yoshi?) doesn't make sense either. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Sort of looks like something from occupied lands manufacture. Be nice to see the blade.

[ggil]

No file marks so Koto ???? Seriously, if the (sorry about that Brian--IF the coming pictures that Bruce asked for show it) blade is Damascus I'm calling Chinese fake. Occupation sword wouldn't get the kanji right?

[Brian]

Bear in mind I did NOT look at the linked pics. So if I only had the nakago pic to go on, I would say mumei with spurious kanji added. Shape looks on, and there appear to be some yasurime.
But if you say the additional pics look like damascus..that is someone else entirely.
I'll need to look at the rest of the pics later.

[Bruce Pennington]

Andrew, it would really help to see a couple of close-up stills of the blade and blade tip.

[Nihontocollector19]

i posted what i was given by my friend in the links as the video wont let me atttached

[Nihontocollector19]

some pictures

[Nihontocollector19]

kissaki

[Nihontocollector19]

cutting edge

[ggil]

When it comes to occupation blades, seems hard to draw many solid conclusions. Chinese fakes aren't worth anything IMO, but an occupation blade may look really similar to a fake, but it would likely be more useful as a weapon (better raw materials and processing maybe, designed for fighting not duping rich folks). With the last picture though (showing habaki and Saya) my guess is that Bruce is on to it, and this isn't fake.

 

The blurry "cutting edge" pic may even show signs of differential hardening of some sort.

[Stephen]

the blurry photos tell you nothing! the focus is on the background but you have true detectives Brice/Grant in theory mode so who knows  what they will come up with. nakago looks good file marks bad crapy mei, dont think your going to make this more than it is.

[Bruce Pennington]

I doubt we'll get any closer than "not Japanese made". The kanji could be a clue if someone with Chinese knowledge can take a look. There are a couple of guys at Warrelics or Gunboards that have that capability. If the kanji defies all nationality recognition, then I'd put it down as a repro, but until then I've never seen one in such nice koshirae, and I'd leave it open to occupied lands potential.

[Nihontocollector19]

clearer pics

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looks legit to me.

 

Edit to add: I'm inclined to think that the sword is good and someone had some fun with the nakago. Everything else seems fine but the inscription.

[Bruce Pennington]

Dang! I knew I'd seen something like this before! Fuller & Gregory, pg 105, has a waki in the same kind of koshirae. He said it was in "wooden mounts adapted for military use by the addition of a brown leather covering". The tsuka on his looks like the leather cover and the kabuto-gane went missing. Same style.

[Shamsy]

Almost certainly collaboration based on handle or maybe late war leather covered sword. See p77 and p266 F&G hard cover for an example of a near identical tsuka. Also F&G soft cover pg 43. The wooden handle with the big, plain knot loop is pretty consistent. I would call it a pattern based on how many similar examples I have seen (though a lot of small variations ).

 

This is not the same sword pattern, but an example of a leather covered sword if anyone is interested. I have a leather covered shirasaya I bought at one stage as an example, though not as nice as the one Bruce posted a photo of.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Japan-WWII-WW2-Late-War-Signed-Katana-Sword-w-Scabbard-/131819001831?hash=item1eb10657e7:g:OTQAAOSwWnFV-xfF

[Bruce Pennington]

Almost certainly collaboration based on handle or maybe late war leather covered sword. See p77 and p266 F&G hard cover for an example of a near identical tsuka. Also F&G soft cover pg 43. The wooden handle with the big, plain knot loop is pretty consistent. I would call it a pattern based on how many similar examples I have seen (though a lot of small variations ).

 

This is not the same sword pattern, but an example of a leather covered sword if anyone is interested. I have a leather covered shirasaya I bought at one stage as an example, though not as nice as the one Bruce posted a photo of.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Japan-WWII-WW2-Late-War-Signed-Katana-Sword-w-Scabbard-/131819001831?hash=item1eb10657e7:g:OTQAAOSwWnFV-xfF

Shamsy, quite an interesting nakago! Is it something old?

[Nihontocollector19]

with those with the book please attach

[Stephen]

andy bottom right just above close ....disk save

[Shamsy]

Shamsy, quite an interesting nakago! Is it something old?

Hi Bruce,

 

Are you referring to the sword on ebay? I doubt that it's a hidden treasure sadly. Most of the leather covered swords were either poorly made wartime blades or low quality traditional swords. Better question for the nihontonites I think.

 

My leather covered shirasaya houses a signed wakizashi from 1500's but it's not stunning and has a few old rust pits. I just thought it was an interesting example of war time requirements for swords of any kind.

[george trotter]

Hi,

I have seen this type of mei before...about 30 years ago. I translated a copy of it for Richard Fuller and he printed it in his yellow book 'Swordsmiths of Japan 1926-1945" 1983 (thick volume) and it is oshigata 296 (I can't scan it as it will break the spine of the book...maybe someone else can scan/photograph the page?).

Yours and the one in the book are signed the same.  

They both say "Gi Shu Dan Saku" which I would say as a guess is "Made by the art/culture group". The number on the one in Gregory's book is "dai shi ju ni go" (number 42) and yours is "ju go" number 10.

I remember discussing it at the time and all I can say is that it appears that a certain cultural group must have volunteered to help make swords for Japanese troops, probably in Japan.

Sorry I don't know any more.

[Brian]

Great info George

[SteveM]

義集団作　十号

 

I wonder if Ohmura has any info on this group. I couldn't find anything when I searched the Japan sites. 

[george trotter]

Hi Andrew,

Looking at my Nelson's Dictionary "Gi" can mean loyalty and "shudan" means group...so the maker seems to be the Loyalty Group (maybe a patriotic association? It seems they made them or paid for a swordsmith to make them and sign them with their association name as the "maker")...I'm just guessing.

Very unusual anyway...I'm glad you have reported a second example...it all adds to the total of our knowledge (just goes to show the value of collecting and recording oshigata...you never know when another example will need the knowledge of past researchers like Fuller and Gregory.).

Regards,