Motif/theme

[almeister]

See if photos come through

AlanK

[almeister]

Computer knackered , operating from phone - cant see how to add photo attachments? There is no " attach this file " option being displayed !

AlanK

[Stephen]

more reply options

[almeister]

Thanks Stephen !

I wasn't operating on full version !

Anyway :

A wizard casting a dragon out of a pot ?

A man drinking sake in a cave wiyh a dragon ?

Cheers , AlanK

[TETSUGENDO]

Alan,

 

I think this depicts Handaka Sonja.

 

StevenK

 

 

[kissakai]

Hi Alan

It is similar to the Chokuru (I think that's how it's spelt) but that was a horse out of a vase

There maybe something in Joly's Legend in Japanese Art

 

 

Grev

[almeister]

Thanks Steven & Grev !

That will give me somethings to research for now !

Do you/s believe "both tsubas " depict the same motif/theme ?

Cheers, AlanK

[Stephen]

Yes

 

Both are tripping out seeing Dragons in  the clouds. Really bad or would that be good Sake?  LOL

[Stephen]

id bet its in here, but ill not take the time to read it

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/ddl/ddl11.htm

[almeister]

LOL ???? F*****g classic Stephen !

But i read the link you sent through - my dragon only has one head ( not 8 ) - can you send me some of the sake you're drinkin please ? - it must b good !????

Cheers AlanK

[MauroP]

I think the subject depicted is Chinnan Sennin (see http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/tsuba-with-design-of-chinnan-sennin-and-dragon-11760). According to "Legend in Japanese art":

"Once passing through a village in Sogo, he found the people praying for rain, whereupon he thrust his stick into a pool of dried mud in which he detected the presence of a dragon, and compelled the latter to open the cataracts of heaven upon the parched land."

Bye, Mauro

[SteveM]

Wow - now I'm really intrigued.

 

I thought for sure that Steven K was correct with Handaka Sonja (半託迦尊者）. There are other artworks featuring the motif of Handaka Sonja (or Panthaka, or Pantha the Younger) conjuring a dragon from a bowl. 

 

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-handaka-sonja-handaka-sonja-one-of-the-sixteen-rakan-or-arhats-one-60196774.html

http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/handaka-sonja-10336

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/isida_tooru/GALLERY/show_image_v2.html?id=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.c.yimg.jp%2Fres%2Fblog-9f-18%2Fisida_tooru%2Ffolder%2F818926%2F59%2F61864059%2Fimg_1%3F1365387714&i=1

 

But Mauro's post above indicates the same theme coming from a different place in Japanese/Chinese lore 

https://archive.org/details/mma_the_chinese_sennin_chen_nan_japanese_chinnan_37263

 

Now I don't know which one is correct (and how unusual that the two exact themes seem to be independent of one another). Note that the book to which Mauro linked lists both legends: Chinnan on page 38, and Handaka on page 109. If I had to pick one, I'd say that the lack of any obvious Buddhist paraphernalia makes me think the figure is, as Mauro suggests, the hermit Chinnan, rather than the Buddhist disciple Handaka Sonja.  

[almeister]

Very interesting

Don't know which way to lean towards ???? Appreciate Everyone's Help !

So it's obviously not a very common theme ?

I bought both tsubas several years apart , The most recent one was the larger one off Yahoo Japan - when i saw it i had to have it as i had a blade in Japan having matching koshirae made up for a katana & wakizashi by the same smith - couldn't believe my luck - timing was perfect !

BTW - What would the background of both tsubas considered to be - rough terrain of some sought?

Thanks again for all input !

AlanK

[ROKUJURO]

....It is similar to the Chokuru (I think that's how it's spelt) but that was a horse out of a vase......

 

Grev,

 

you mean CHOKARO SENNIN?

 

 

That is this one!

[kissakai]

Yes that's the one - thanks

[almeister]

Hi All

Hope everyone is well !

Thought I would refresh my old topic as I still have tsubas to see if anyone else has any other opinions ?

Stay well and be safe !

Kindest regards ,

Cheers , AlanK

[PietroParis]

Sennin are usually represented with ragged clothes made of mugwort leaves (although those are not visible in Jean's Chokaro above). The richly decorated robe of the character in your tsuba puts me in the Handaka Sonja camp, but what do I know?

[Tanto54]

Maruo is correct (and, well, StevenK is not...)  This is definitely Chinnan Sennin.  Here's why.  First, Handaka Sonja is one of the sixteen rakan or arhats and they are almost alway depicted bald, and the person on both of your tsuba has a full head of hair.  Second, the rakan (and Handaka Sonja) are almost always shown wearing Buddhist style clothing (i.e., one bare shoulder), and the person on your tsuba is not.  Third, Pietro was correct about mugwort leaves often being a clue to the person being a Sennin (even though he apparently missed the mugwort leaves and therefore picked the wrong "camp").  If you look carefully on one of your tsuba, you can see that the person has a mugwort leaves collar.  Therefore, these must be Chinnan Sennin and are similar because they were modeled on one of the paintings in one of the tosogu theme model books.

 

Your Tsuba:  Not Bald - not Buddhist dress

 

 

Chinnan Sennin:  Not Bald - Looks just like your tsuba

 

 

Handaka Sonja: Bald - clothes off one shoulder

 

 

Mugwort Leaves on Your Tsuba:  You can see two of the Mugwort Leaves of his collar

 

 

Sennin with Mugwort Leaves Collar:

 

[PietroParis]

Yes I did miss the mugwort leaves in the second tsuba, I was only looking at the first one in the rotated pictures by StevenK/Tetsugendo. Am I still allowed to switch camps?

 

P.S. does anybody have news on Steven?

[almeister]

Hey Guys

Much appreciate your input /efforts !

It appears it may not be a generally used motif ??

That's why I thought I'd throw it out there again after a while to see if any new input/anyone had something similar ?

 

I purchased the first/smaller tsuba years ago , and then one night the other one showed up on Yahoo Japan (quite a while later) , when I saw it , I knew I had to have it ! I painstakingly won the auction$$

 

George , I think you've pin pointed another very relevant observation , thankyou !

 

Mauros first assumption sounded good to me as well !

 

Many thanks Gents !

Kindest regards

Cheers , AlanK