stevel48 Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 I have a nihonto signed sesshu ju yamato (that's what the consensus is) but I cannot find information on him anywhere. I've tried the usual web resources like jssus and nihontoclub . What other resources could lead me to finding a match? Quote
Shugyosha Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 The problem you have is that a portion of the signature was lost when the sword was shortened and that this was the bit with the smith's name. Japanese art signatures can be formulaic. The "Yamato" portion of the mei would often be followed by a title such as "kami" or "daijo" and then perhaps by one of the ancient family names such as Taira, Fujiwara or Minamoto and after this the characters for the actual name of the smith would be written. I think it probable that, if this guy was signing with a title as stated above, then he would be documented. However, I feel that the best you (or some kind person who has plenty of time on his hands) can hope for is to trawl through the Hawley's or the meikan and compile a list of all those smiths working in the province of Settsu who signed using a title of "Yamato Kami" etc but I think that it is improbable that this will result in an attribution to a single swordsmith and the best that you can hope for is that it will be one of a number of candidates. Best regards and good hunting, Quote
george trotter Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 I looked up an old Hawley booklet called "Honorary Titles used by Swordsmiths" and there are 47 smiths who used "Yamato no Kami" and 3 smiths who used "Yamato no Suke" and 21 who used "Yamato Daijo". There are a further 24 who are probably following generations of some of these names. From your mei it is a smith who lived in Sesshu (Settsu) and used it in his mei followed by Yamato no...?. The list I quote from is referenced to the old "Blue Books" of Hawley so it is probably not possible to cross reference the code numbers to the later Hawley editions because the numbers changed. If you can get your hands on the "Blue Books" I have scanned the list of names of the 95 smiths for you so you can go through them and pick out those that have "Sesshu" in the mei. Then you can check oshigatas of these to see if any are close to your mei. Hope this helps, Quote
stevel48 Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Posted November 24, 2014 George....your my new best friend. Very kind and generous of you to have done that for me Much appreciated Steve. Quote
Brian Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 http://www.sho-shin.com/titles.htm That should narrow it down to 4 or 5. However, has anyone confirmed the reading of the mei present? Brian Quote
stevel48 Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Posted November 24, 2014 http://www.sho-shin.com/titles.htmThat should narrow it down to 4 or 5. However, has anyone confirmed the reading of the mei present? Brian Only us on the boards, and 2 US polisher as well as Kunitaro. All with the same conclusion. Sesshu Ju Yamato. it's off to shinsa in April. Quote
george trotter Posted November 24, 2014 Report Posted November 24, 2014 Hi Steve, you are very welcome...good luck in your research. On Brian's comment on Sesshu...I have to admit that I too would have had a small "?" without Kunitaro sensei's reading...I wish they would write things clearly for us foreigners of later centuries . Regards, Quote
stevel48 Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Posted November 24, 2014 Hi Steve,you are very welcome...good luck in your research. On Brian's comment on Sesshu...I have to admit that I too would have had a small "?" without Kunitaro sensei's reading...I wish they would write things clearly for us foreigners of later centuries . Regards, I know. Just look at the strokes. The count is wrong and it's all just odd. Shu and Ju are the only ones that make any sense. Yamato doesn't look like Yamato but daijo wouldn't make sense I guess. it wouldn't be the correct order to list province and then title. Quote
stevel48 Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Posted November 25, 2014 No match yet. Still searching and reading. Should I be looking for a smith with the name beginning Sesshu ju yamato xxxx OR a smith with a name that begins with yamato no kami/daijo etc but signs sesshu ju yamato xxx? Quote
cabowen Posted November 25, 2014 Report Posted November 25, 2014 You need to find a smith who worked in Settsu/Osaka that had a Yamato no Kami, Yamato Daijo, Yamato no Suke, etc., title.... Quote
stevel48 Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Posted November 25, 2014 Here is what I have found so far Chris YAMATO-no-KAMI YOSHIMICHI(1) MAN-JI 1658 OSAKA SHINTO YOSHIMICHI(2) EN-PO 1673 OSAKA SHINTO YOSHIMICHI(3) GEN-ROKU 1688 OSAKA SHINTO MOTONOBU SHO-TOKU 1711 SETTSU SHINTO KUNIHIDE GEN-ROKU 1688 OSAKA SHINTO SUKEMASA TEI-KYO 1684 OSAKA YAMATO-no-SUKE MASAMITSU GEN-JI 1864 SETTSU SHIN-SHINTO MASATSUGU TEN-PO 1830 SETTSU SH Quote
cabowen Posted November 25, 2014 Report Posted November 25, 2014 Now you need to compare the signatures of each of these smiths to yours and hope one is a match. Search each on google, both in English and Japanese for valid examples. No one said it would be easy! Quote
stevel48 Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Posted November 25, 2014 no luck yet but I think the mei may be Yamato no kami because there is a first stroke of the next kanji visible that might align with kami. Quote
cabowen Posted November 25, 2014 Report Posted November 25, 2014 I think that is what I pointed out in your original thread.... Quote
stevel48 Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Posted November 25, 2014 I'm at a total dead end right now but I found this to be interesting: Kami and the expert title of Jo contain the 1 stroke of the next kanji seen above. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted November 26, 2014 Report Posted November 26, 2014 You will need to have a good reference book to do this. You will also need extra patience as these English renderings could be one of several Japanese Kanji, such as Masa, Suke, etc. Incidentally I did come across a slightly longer Mei with 畠山 in it, ie 摂州住畠山大和介正次 (Masatsugu) listed as Osaka, Tempo era. Quote
stevel48 Posted November 26, 2014 Author Report Posted November 26, 2014 There are some close matches but noting exact so far. sesshu ju yamato no kami ( smiths Name)...would this read in English as: Govenor (smiths name) from settsu resident of yamato? Quote
stevel48 Posted November 26, 2014 Author Report Posted November 26, 2014 The closest I have come so far but not the right province. Kanenobu - Mino 濃州住大和守兼信 yamato no kami kanenobu Tadatsugu - Yamashiro 城州住大和大掾藤原忠次jōshū ju yamato daijō fujiwara tadatsugu Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted November 27, 2014 Report Posted November 27, 2014 Steve, play with what I offered above. It may be the best you'll get. Could the final stroke ノ be the tip of the first stroke of the top of 介 Suke? Settsu/Sesshu means the larger area (especially north) of Osaka. This is where the smith was living and working. If there is a town or village name, like Hatakeyama, this narrows it down further for you. Then comes the title, like Guardian/Protector of Yamato, Yamato no Suke, and finally the smith's name. Think ... 'New York, (Greenwich village) resident, "Guardian of Gotham" Steve Fortiate' Quote
stevel48 Posted November 28, 2014 Author Report Posted November 28, 2014 Steve, play with what I offered above. It may be the best you'll get. Could the final stroke ノ be the tip of the first stroke of the top of 介 Suke? I looked but no equal stroke on the right side to from the roof. Hopefully the NTHK can Id it. Quote
cabowen Posted November 28, 2014 Report Posted November 28, 2014 Hopefully the NTHK can Id it. Maybe but they aren't going to spend more than a few minutes with it and will likely not have all reference works necessary to check against. Your best bet is to do as I suggested and find reference signatures of all the smiths from Settsu with a Yamato no XX title. Seems there are only 6 or 7 possibilities... Quote
stevel48 Posted November 28, 2014 Author Report Posted November 28, 2014 Hopefully the NTHK can Id it. Maybe but they aren't going to spend more than a few minutes with it and will likely not have all reference works necessary to check against. Your best bet is to do as I suggested and find reference signatures of all the smiths from Settsu with a Yamato no XX title. Seems there are only 6 or 7 possibilities... I did do that Chris but no matches found. One smith that I could not locate was motonobu. The search goes on. Should I buy Hawleys book? Quote
cabowen Posted November 28, 2014 Report Posted November 28, 2014 I wouldn't buy Hawley's as there are no oshigata there to help you. Did you search using the smith signatures in Japanese? There is a lot more info on Japanese sites... I really doubt a shinsa team is going to find your smith in a few minutes if you can't in hours.... Quote
stevel48 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Posted December 2, 2014 Dead end in all languages. Thanks for the effort guys but no luck. Giving up at this point. I guess not all smiths are documented. Quote
stevel48 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Posted December 2, 2014 That's about the only option left. Luckily it goes off to NTHK after it's polish in Japan. Quote
Jean Posted December 2, 2014 Report Posted December 2, 2014 Steve, It is the best option, they give more info than NBTHK in their Kanteisho Quote
cabowen Posted December 2, 2014 Report Posted December 2, 2014 I bet you will get a "meikan more" (unrecorded) result... Quote
stevel48 Posted December 3, 2014 Author Report Posted December 3, 2014 I'll certainly post the result here. Quote
stevel48 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Report Posted April 12, 2015 NTHK papered the sword as Den-Seshu ju Yamato / no kami Sukemasa 摂州住大和（守助政） Quote
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