Possibly risking Kaishaku, but I am prepared...

[CurtisR]

Rather than add to the previous thread, I've learned and researched my mumei katana with iron "cobbled" fittings. And with help from a very brilliant man in Chiba. I believe that the blade - many of you may not be familiar with the term "Hillbilly", but this is the type of area this was sent to me from, by a long-time friend.

O.K. - now to it...

 

I believe that I've found the smith for this blade. Shinsa will tell for sure. Before judging, please visit this site & then compare...

Shizu Saburo Kaneuji was one of the 10 of Masamune's original students in the Mino prefecture. I can find no other like it.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/shizu-3/

 

O-suriage for sure (as Chris picked out immediately) - beautiful hada and Hamon, very intricate and can't wait to get it back in shirasaya to do more comparison. I know that presenting a blade as one made by a student of Masamune is "darn" near an insult, but this comes from what I've been able to research.

Please feel free to comment - I am fairly convinced now that the koshirae are what was available at the time - read "13th Century" - and not thinking of a blade this old, I discounted them wrongly. I **WILL** he either taking to shinsa or sending to my friend in Japan for shinsa, and believe it will pass. I guess time will tell, but it will make for interesting discussion, perhaps?

 

Curtis R.

[CurtisR]

To hedge the bet

 

C.

[paulb]

Hi Curtis

If this were by Kaneuji it would be a fantastic find. As you say he was one of Masamune's 10 brilliant pupils, some argue the best, and the founder of the Mino school.

I think it is an extremely long shot so please do not get too excited at this stage. I cant see enough on your sword to even hazzard a guess, but to receive an atribution to Kaneuji or even a broader Yamato-Shizu call would need it to be seen in a much better polish.

May be of period (i.e 14th century) but trying to tie this down to a specific smith, especially so important a smith, is stretching optimism a bit far (however stranger things have happened!)

good luck

regards

Paul

[Jean]

Paul is right. Some Japanese dealers say that one of the key kantei point is the boshi.

 

Compare yours to Shizu boshi.

 

http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/a519.htm

[Brian]

I don't get o-suriage from the pics shown. I get Shinshinto from the yasurime and condition of the nakago.

But a beautiful sword. I am a sucker for good hi. It just seems to healthy and think a shinsa would agree. But I hold thumbs I am wrong and it goes to a good Koto smith. A good Shinshinto call would not be bad either. No matter what, it's a nice find.

 

Brian

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

it seems that you base your speculation on two factors: the futatsuji hi and what looks like a gunome hamon.

 

This is not enough to make an attribution to a smith, be it Kaneuji or any other kaji. There are so many factors that must be taken into account in kantei, and their combinations are numerous. It is bewildering even for shinsa members

 

However, it is great that you want to share your sword and your opinion on this Forum, because that's what people do here - try to help. Also, your enthusiasm is also a very good thing, just don't get disheartened when your sword turns out to be something less then a masterpiece (as it most likely will).

 

It simply takes a bit more learning to make attributions, especially such bold ones, OK? :D

 

Please don't take offence :-)

 

I wish you luck with the sword, it is a nice find, as Brian said :-)

[cabowen]

 

O-suriage for sure (as Chris picked out immediately) -

 

 

Hmmm, I thought I made a rather compelling case for it to be ubu???

 

As others have said, it's a nicely made sword. It's good you are hitting the books and trying to make some sense of it. By all means, get it to shinsa and share the results when you can....

[CurtisR]

Thank you all!! And no, I don't take ANY offense :D :D ! You are exactly right that I'm basing it on the hamon - primarily, and sugata. BUT (HUGE "but"!!) Chris, you did make a compelling case for ubu...lord knows you've seen more than my eyes hope to before I pass from the mortal coil .

 

I've learned a bit by researching, so not wasted effort. I ( ) can't afford a better polish for it at this point...the shirasaya and shinsa costs will be enough for the first year or two -- fortunately I REALLY (as in, insanely, no matter what) got one h@ll of a bargain on the sword itself so I feel fortunate. I guess I'll just enjoy it once it returns, and honestly even if it IS of the line, I don't think I'd sell it ----- although----- .

 

Thanks you all for your wisdom. It increases mine every time I stick my neck out (and my helper has re-sheathed so no hada-kidi today lol.

 

If I do learn anything new, maybe we can kick it around. Again, MANY thanks!!

 

Curtis R.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I can't really tell from your photos whether the blade is in good enough polish for shinsa, Curtis. But if you end up having to get it polished first, then a new shirasaya is part of that process.

 

Ken

[CurtisR]

Roger that Ken - I know if one can afford it, a new shirasaya and habaki are part of the polishing deal. For now, with limited $$, I just want to protect it even at a bit of extra cost for a couple of yrs. until I can send it to Japan for polish, etc.

 

Why wasn't I born rich vs. beautiful??

Hey....wait....I've been ripped off TWICE! :D

 

Anyway, here are a few more with the levels adjusted properly...it does give a decent rep. of what the blade's condition is --- honestly I believe it'll be Koto, and amazes me that it has the surface that it does.

 

Cheers,

 

Curtis

[bone]

I.... Hesitate to say this but at least get a window polished. *sigh* Frankly I think that's a great blade in disguise.

[chrstphr]

I also think this is Ubu and Shinshinto based on what i see in the photos. I dont see Kamakura here. I think 1600s.

 

Shinsa is a good bet after a polish. but a nice sword.

 

 

Chris

[mywei]

I also think this is Ubu and Shinshinto based on what i see in the photos. I dont see Kamakura here. I think 1600s.

 

1600s would make it Shinto

 

You can still see the yasurime on the entire nakago. Looks ubu to me imho.

[CurtisR]

A window! See why I come here? lol...seriously hadn't thought of that but it makes great sense! I will look into this but again, the costs to send to Japan....ah well, something to figure out!

Also to Jean I forgot to thank you for the link - awesome and very interesting. I need to study it more but I think I see what you're pointing out.

 

Curtis R.

[ROKUJURO]

Curtis,

 

have a good look at the SORI and compare with KOTO blades.

[cabowen]

Curtis, I think it is in good enough polish for shinsa. You could choose the low cost route and submit for shinsa in 2016 in Tampa. That gives you time to save some money for a proper polish if it warrants the expense. There is a fully trained polisher in Canada, Takeo Sakai I believe his name is...You could contact him regarding a polish should you go that route as it would probably be less costly than sending to Japan, though I could be wrong...

[CurtisR]

Jean, I have a photo example of the blades sori and periods right in front of me with the katana above it...my novice eye sees it landing in Kamakura-land (and if ubu, the nakago structure is correct too) but Shinsa will tell much! Hey, at least you have to admit it's a mystery ---- as a wise man stated here early on; "We post...we learn" (to paraphrase) .

 

Sincerely,

 

Curtis R.

[CurtisR]

And to Mr. Bowen;

Sir you read my mind! I believe that'll be my plan...I don't want to risk a "so-so" polish and expense if it turns out that it might be a very good blade. I will look into the polisher you suggested, also - but fortunately I have a bit of time to save up, eh??

 

Curtis R.

[Jean]

Unfortunately Curtis, many smiths copied Kamakura sword pattern, in fact it was one of Shinshinto smiths specialty.

Sori is not a kantei point unless the blade is ubu.

[CurtisR]

Dear Chris & all, thank you - it will get a bit more uchiko over the time (NOT a lot!) and will hopefully be accepted. It truly does look better in person. And Jean, that's very interesting!! Ahhhhh.....crafty craftsmen!

I am learning a lot of respect got those who can properly kantei .

I will probably get it back in shirasaya in a month or two, so then it'll remain a mystery until Shinsa but I really appreciate everyone's input. And please, don't hesitate to message me with a thought or what have you - or post!!

 

To your week-ends

 

Curtis

[Kronos]

No matter what that looks like a great blade. There's not a lot to go on as to whether it is ubu shinshinto or o-suriage koto simply shortened at a much later time. Only the quality of the workmanship will be able to tell.

 

Edit: From the last photo I'm inclined to think very early shinshinto but I know nothing of what I speak so ignore me

[CurtisR]

Jean-san...I think you know very well of what you speak - I respect ALL opinions! And thank you - having dealt mainly with showto, moving back in time is a learning experience. Either Koto or Shinfo, Ubu or O-suriage, it is a beauty to hold! Especially at the random luck of the find, and the awesome price from a life-long friend.

 

Many thanks,

 

Curt R.

[Darcy]

You're going to get Ganmaku I think :|

 

It's not Shizu.

 

If it were Shizu then the horimono is added after. So you'd have to get past the futasuji hi as a similarity, which is hard when they are such an obvious feature.

 

The good Soshu smiths when they made these had very careful and balanced geometry in the hi, and your blade does not copy their geometry. It is a feature that we see often in Soshu blades and some that have boji now did have futasuji hi that were knocked out and converted in the Edo period.

 

The hi on this sword are a bit awkward, with sparse placement, one along the edge of the shinogi and the other looking kind of set in the middle of the shinogi ji. If you compare to the Shizu in question you can see that its futasuji hi cover the space more adequately. The blade in question has a large gap and the hi do not seem to be the same width (though this may just be an artifact of the photo). Regardless they are a couple of degrees too crude to be something that the top level Soshu smiths made. That doesn't rule out the smith of course because they can always be add-ons but in this case I think they belong to the blade.

 

That Shizu I had was one that had particularly perfect geometry everywhere. Great shape, sugata, sori, and horimono. All in harmony. Something to look out for when trying to tie a blade to a top level smith.

 

[Darcy]

The spacing of the futasuji hi may appear more clear in the nakago, since reflections can confuse the eye with the way these blades are shot.

 

 

So this tight arrangement with very little space and very equal hi represents very tight tolerances. Manufacture with tight tolerances reflects a high degree of capability (technology and skill).

[CurtisR]

Darcy, I have to humbly disagree with you on this one...yes, much of it is due to the quality of images, BUT...the boji are (IMHO) very nicely crafter - jizo hamon in the kissaki - really NICE balance, and sugata as well as (I'm with Chris here, even though there is on one mekugiana) Ubu.

 

After doing a lot of reading this last week or two - and looking at mannnnny pics - my guess is that it willbe of the Kenuji LINE, and an early to mid-period Mino school blade .

 

I guess shinsa will (I hope) determine if I'm right, but then I'm pretty new to this although I think I'm on the right track. Even via the Conn. Book of Japanese Swords under Mino leads at least some gredence to my guess. Regardless, we gotta love a mystery!!

 

 

Curtis R.

[Brian]

Curtis,

You do realize that ubu means unaltered/unshortened nakago?

 

Brian

[CurtisR]

I do Brian - it's a mixed argument. Chris says he believes ubu but Mr. Tirado (making shirasaya) and other believe o-suriage. Is there a WAY to tell, from the finish of the nakago, whether it IS o-suriage or ubu?

 

In other words, can you give me pointers on what to look for at the end of the nakago (once I have it back in-hand) that give clues to either, other than the bohi?I know that the deepest part of the sori is about 20-30 cm from the nakago so is this what "they" look for? And then extend it on out mentally?

 

I don't mean to insult anyone - ever - but it seems to be the big part of the argument vs. the hamon, etc.

 

Many thanks,

 

Curtis R.

[Darcy]

What you want to look for is the behavior of the hamon as it enters into the nakago.

 

If the hamon appears to continue into the rust then this helps you determine if it is suriage. Often times there are obvious clues about how the nakago jiri was cut, or we can see areas where the blade was shortened a few times and the aging proceeds from old at the bottom to new above.

 

Look at this picture (it's big) and focus on the nakago:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/osafune-masamitsu/page-l.jpg

 

You can see the hamon continuing clearly down into the nakago and actually has retained some shape in the rusted area before vanishing. Normally the smith is going to terminate the hamon with authority if it is at the natural machi he made.

 

Other than this you need to look at the relationship of the nakago to the sword, about the kasane, if the sword itself is the same thickness as the nakago and tapers down in the nakago it's probably a sign that the nakago is original and the sword not that old. Though it could be the last shortening made for a particular sword and it was almost never polished again after that.

 

Aside from the hamon and how it behaves at the machi, and then aging of the nakago (example to follow), I can't think of any smoking guns off the top of my head. There is always movement of the signature of course, if the signature looks awkwardly placed. Yasurime too as you can look for different patterns that don't match up, as well as rust.

 

The problem with this though is if the shortening were done one time and then the jiri is reshaped and the whole thing refinished nicely, it becomes difficult to tell if it is ubu or suriage unless you attend to the hamon. That is the one thing that is going to remain an absolute.

 

In this image zoom in on the nakago and look at the bottom two holes. You can see a clear change in texture which indicates a much older nakago than the surface that is on the majority of it. We'd look at that and conclude suriage.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/fukuoka-ichimonji/page-l.jpg

[CurtisR]

You can see the hamon continuing clearly down into the nakago and actually has retained some shape in the rusted area before vanishing. Normally the smith is going to terminate the hamon with authority if it is at the natural machi he made.

 

This is an excellent statement or way of putting it Darcy!! Thank you for such a great answer as well - so much to know. I DID take horrible pics (not knowing the importance of)of the area of the machi and will correct/add once it's back. I can say that it appears that the hamon continues into the nakago but guess I'll (we'll) see in a month or tow eh?

 

I'm going to have to digest the rest of your info. as well (and print/save lol) --- Many thanks for such a great reply with so much info.!!

 

 

More to follow my friends and cohorts ~

 

Curtis R.

 

Man, I just don't know now...

[cabowen]

Curtis-

 

Sometimes the hamon will continue into the nakago a bit, as in the sword linked above. Obviously, when you see this, it is a clear sign that the blade has been shortened.

 

Perhaps more often, when the blade is shortened, the smith will heat the edge to soften the steel so that it can be more easily cut. When skillfully done, the hamon will end just below the hamachi, just like on an ubu sword. Sometimes there will be a mizu-kage like line across the blade at this point below the hamachi, but not always, and even when it is there, most of the time it is very difficult to impossible to see. Often, the very end of the hamon will tend to fade away, without a tightly defined nioi-guchi and this is another sign, though this too is not always apparent. Some smiths simply made their blades this way though so that isn't always a reliable sign either.

 

Bottom line, if the hamon continues down the nakago more than normal, it is most likely suriage. If the hamon ends in a seemingly normal way, it can still be suriage/machi-okuri.