Grey Doffin Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 Hi guys, Picked up this tsuba recently; came in a box with Dr. Sato's hako-gaki to Onin. This isn't what I expect from Onin but I'm no authority. 7.9 x 8.4 x .5 cm. The brass inlay is flush to the surface. Could this be Onin or do you think I have something else in the wrong box? Thanks, Grey Quote
Jean Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 And the picture, Grey BTW, I don't know anything about tsuba, but Onin tsuba makes me think of Heianjo tsuba. Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 Yes Jean an Onin Tsuba(here) without picture-is like an picture(here) without an Onin Tsuba....LOL! do have an Grey! (feel confident next time it will work better!)(LOL! :D ) Cheers! Christian Quote
Grey Doffin Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Posted March 27, 2014 What! You expect me to remember everything? Grey Quote
b.hennick Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 I think that I saw this on ebay. The inlay doesn't look like brass. Colour is more of copper. The style of inlay does not look Onin to me either. Two reasons why I didn't bid. Quote
Grey Doffin Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Posted March 27, 2014 The color is off a bit in my pictures. Definitely brass, I think. Grey Quote
seattle1 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 Hello: Onin tsuba come in two types, taka-zogan and suemon-zogan, and in addition they tend to be thin, mirroring the ko-katchushi progenitors of their time. The zogan, in most cases, is pre-cut and inserted and tends to stand somewhat proud, though some are also cut in place. I don't think the example shown fits the bill. Arnold F. Quote
Soshin Posted March 27, 2014 Report Posted March 27, 2014 Hi Grey, Can you post a photo of the Hakogaki that cane with this tsuba? Thank you. Quote
christianmalterre Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 seems to sort out as an rather "modern" "taste"(of!)(that?) school "Onin" indeed!? Christian Quote
Grey Doffin Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Posted March 28, 2014 Hi guys, I would appreciate having a translation of the hako-gaki. The tsuba and box will go to my website and I don't want to be misrepresenting it based on what the seller I got it from had to say. Thanks, Grey Quote
Soshin Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 Hi Grey, Dr. Sato was much more of a nihonto expert then a tosogu expert so the attribution may not be so accurate. The first column from the far right side says top to bottom: tate maru-gata (竪丸形), tetsu-ji (鉄地). The second column from the far right side says from top to bottom: ko-sukashi (小透), shinchu zogan (真鍮象嵌). The third column from the far right side says: mumei (無銘), Onin (応仁). The fourth column from the far right side says: Kanzan plus hanko. The front of the box says: kiku sukashi (菊透), zogan tsuba (象嵌鐔). I only had to ask my wife twice. :lol: From looking at the front and back of lid they look like they were written by the same hand. Quote
Soshin Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 Hi Grey, Just noticed I missed a line in my transliteration but from checking your website you was able to handle the date line right next to the mei and hanko. I agree with the opinion the box was likely a mismatch to the tsuba as the tsuba looks like a nice Heianjo-zogan tsuba and not a Onin tsuba. Quote
MauroP Posted April 3, 2014 Report Posted April 3, 2014 Hi everybody, sadly I have to admit that the more I study tsuba, the less I understand. The following tsuba are all claimed to be Ōnin examples: Please see the original links for reference: 1 - http://www.shoubudou.co.jp/tuba-304.html (NBTHK Hozon Paper) 2 - http://www.e-sword.jp/baiyaku_to_3.htm 3 - http://www9.plala.or.jp/tuyukusamisuzu/index2.html 4 - http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/d8e69 ... 1e0e5352c0 5 - http://touken-tousougu.sakura.ne.jp/kan ... ugu10.html 6 - http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/0028a ... d7b54dbd9a 7 - http://is2.sss.fukushima-u.ac.jp/fks-db ... 016_02.jpg 8 - http://is2.sss.fukushima-u.ac.jp/fks-db ... 016_03.jpg 9 - http://is2.sss.fukushima-u.ac.jp/fks-db ... 016_04.jpg Notably #1 got a NBTHK Hozon Paper, and #7, 8 and 9 are from Aotsu Yasuhisa's Tōsōgu korekushon. By the way, #3 has the same pattern decoration as the original tsuba posted here by Grey. Can anybody explain me how to distinguish an Ōnin from an Heianjō-zōgan tsuba? The fact (or hypothesis?) that the brass pieces in Ōnin tsuba were precast (as stated in "Tsuba - An Aestetic Study" ) seems to me of very little help. Bye, Mauro Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted April 3, 2014 Report Posted April 3, 2014 I'm really rather relieved that your tsuba is Heianjo, Grey, as I've been madly going through my references trying to figure out if any of my tsuba are Onin, instead. Whew! Ken Quote
Grey Doffin Posted April 3, 2014 Author Report Posted April 3, 2014 Hi Ken, How is it that we've decided that the tsuba is Heianjo? According to Mauro's post, some would call this Onin. Grey Quote
Soshin Posted April 3, 2014 Report Posted April 3, 2014 Hi Everyone, Heianjo-zogan tsuba developed from the earlier Onin tsuba in and around the capital of Kyoto. I would say Grey's tsuba with the thickness of the plate is a early Heianjo-zogan tsuba that is not completely removed from late Onin tsuba work. I don't think it is possible to draw a hard and fast line between the early Heianjo-zogan and late Onin tsuba. One thing Barry H. pointed out that was critical is that the inlay is copper and not the early imported brass from China. All of the Onin tsuba have this imported type of brass inlays. Most of the imported Chinese brass came from coins traded for Japanese swords from the Ming Dynasty. Later Heianjo-zogan tsuba while starting with brass inlays moved to include other types of soft metal. Quote
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