Number of mekugi-ana for tsuka? (gunto vs. older)

[Drago]

Hi,

 

i've seen this mentioned here a few times before. It is said that gunto usually have two mekugi ana. The reason supposedly is to give stability and to reduce the risk of the tsuka breaking from stress during combat if it only has one ana.

 

Is that really true?

 

The reason I ask is this: I have never seen a dual ana configuration on old blades. If old blades have more than one ana it only is because the blade was shortened or the nakago area lenghtened.

 

If a tsuka breaking from stress really were such big a problem wouldn't you find the dual ana more often?

 

[Brian]

Most Gunto only have one ana. The exception is the 1944 pattern (Type 3) where a second one at the bottom was common.

 

Brian

[Kai-Gunto]

I have seen shingunto and owen older blades mounted with 2 mekugi ,using old mekugiana.

[george trotter]

I think maybe the answer to your 2 questions (why 2 ana in gunto and why not 2 ana in old swords) lies in the style of use?

In WW@ all these gunto were intended to be used as 2 hand swords, thus, the very end of the tsuka is held firmly with the two fingers of left hand and bears a great stress when striking (swordsmen please comment). This (I think) led to many breakages here at the end of the nakago.

If you check Ohmura's site and look at the "x-ray" drawing in the 1943 army pamphlet announcing the introduction of the Type 3 (page currently moved for improvement), you will see the required dimensions of the blade and nakago, and that the army now required 2 mekugiana etc...(unfortunately I have not seen a similar drawing for Type94/98 to compare).

From the Type 3 drawing, the dimensions of nakago length and that 2 mekugi ana are now stipulated is obvious...this came from battlefield experience I would say (the change to iron fittings is a separate issue driven by alloy shortages and a desire to simplify production of mounts).

 

While as Brian says, it is possible to find Type 98 with 2 ana, it is not normal ( I have one with 2 ana, only 1 used)... and while it is possible to find Type 3 with 1 ana only (or 2 ana and one not used) it is not normal.

I have seen a number of broken off Type 98 tsuka over the years (1 ana) and I have also seen a number of Type 98 tsuka with 2 metal strips set under the strips of same on each side...obviously to strengthen the tsuka (1 hole) in two hand combat use (I am sure I have seen a WW2 advert for this somewhere?).

 

I have not seen a detailed explanation written out in Japanese as an announcement of the reason for these Type 3 changes, but the "evidence" of many years observation of the nakago lengths and 2 holes of Type 3s compared with the nakago lengths and 1 holes (and broken tsuka) of Type 98s are the evidence.

 

As for why we don't see 2 ana on older blades very often (unless suriage), I don't know (although IMHO they seem to turn up pretty often)...maybe the 2 ana types were almost entirely from koto and most of these have been suriage later? Also, those the equally warlike Sengoku Jidai swords were mostly uchigatana , usually 1 ana and shorter katate nakago and tsuka types, used with 1 hand.

 

As for shinto/shinshinto period, well, even though not much was happening on any battlefield the practical knowledge of longer nakago with 2 holes surviving stress was re-appearing (especially in shinshinto).

 

This is my opinion based on observation and what little documentary evidence I have found. I will add that in the RJT scheme 1942/3 onwards, I have seen 1 and 2 ana blades mounted as 98s and 2 cases of Type 3 mounted with 1 ana only (these were by the Yamagami brothers Akihisa and Munetoshi of Niigata, so maybe the RJT ?Type 3 rules varied?...as they say in nihonto...never say never.

I hope this helps?

Regards,

[Drago]

Thank you very much.

 

As for stress on the end: I can't speak for kendo/kenjustu, but I did European Swordfighting for a while. We used bastard swords (one and a half hand swords) that are held in a similar fashion as two-handed katana. Many atacks utilize most of the right arm/hand. In those cases the left hand at the pommel is mostly for stabilization/precision. But there are a few attacks and especially blocks where you use the left hand to firmly control the blade. During attacks you can use it to speed up the blade or rotate it quickly - during blocks to hold against the pressure of the opponent's blade. So in those cases I suppose there is some pressure on the blade, but I still have difficulties to believe a new wooden tsuka would break that easily if it sits firmly.

 

@George: Even if Ohmura's page is unavailable atm, could you please give me a link?

And if you have it, a picture of the tsuka with metal under it.

 

I'm a bit of a fan of Ichihara Nagamitsu and have seen (even if mostly in pcitures) many blades made by him. Sometimes he has 1, sometimes 2.

My Type 3 ("Ichihara Ichiryushi Nagamitsu saku") has only 1.

[cabowen]

We see the lower mekugi-ana from later muromachi on. In older swords, we see it mostly in Shinshinto, sometimes in later Muromachi, and rarely in Shinto.

 

We see it often in type 3 mounts, as mentioned above, and almost always in blades made by Army contract smiths because it was part of the spec. It is rare in other gunto mounts. I believe my Kajiyama Yasunori blade, which is in type 98 mounts has it, but it is also over 30" in length. Picture of it is in the later edition of Kishida san's Yasukuni book.

[Tokaido]

Hello Tobias,

on Shinto Blades you may find the second mekugi-ana occasionally on very long blades (by Yamato (no) Kami Yasusada for example).

But they are rare.

Maybe they were made "by oder from serious swordsmen only"?? Needs further study

I added two samples from the Shinto Taikan:

Two Katana by (Horikawa) Kunimasa, one with and one without the secondary mekugi ana.

The blade with the secondary mekugi-ana is a shy of 1 mm longer than the other one (nagasa 712mm).

 

Below I have posted another oshigata of a blade from my own collection which is rather short (nagasa 662mm),

but has a long nakago (nakago nagasa 212 mm).

Obviously the nakago is ubu = not shortened, but has a secondary mekugi-ana.

Was this second mekugi ana originally there or was it added during the time of the later (200 years) added cutting test?

I do not know, but carefully looking at the mekugia-ana let me think that it is not a later addition.

 

Greetings

Andreas

[runagmc]

Of the relatively few gunto koshirae I have seen, none had well made tsuka. The fit is not good. I have a katana shirasaya with NO mekugi-ana and it's fairly difficult to remove the tsuka (I'm not sure I would want to go swinging it with all my might, even though it may stay put, for all I know). Maybe two makugi-ana for some gunto was because it was easier to drill 2 ana, than make very precise tight tsuka?

 

I'm sure the level of expected use of the sword has also played a part in adding a second ana throughout history...

[george trotter]

 

@George: Even if Ohmura's page is unavailable atm, could you please give me a link?

And if you have it, a picture of the tsuka with metal under it.

 

I'm a bit of a fan of Ichihara Nagamitsu and have seen (even if mostly in pcitures) many blades made by him. Sometimes he has 1, sometimes 2.

My Type 3 ("Ichihara Ichiryushi Nagamitsu saku") has only 1.

 

A few days ago Brian posted the link to the drawing in "General Nihonto Related..." thread in "Yasukunito in Type 3 mount?" Scroll down 7 posts to Brian's post and click on the first link there

http://www.ohmura-study.net/286.html

scroll halfway down and you will see the drawing.

His next link has a pic of a Nagamitsu blade in Type 3 mounts...very nice and this part is in English.

Regards,

[cabowen]

Two holes had everything to do with strength and safety, nothing to do with ease of mounting.

[Drago]

Thanks.

 

But it makes me think: If the use of two holes was part of the specifications, why are there so many high quality Type 3s out there that only have one? (Like mine...)

[cabowen]

Is yours stamped with the star? If it is, and has only one meguki-ana, it is out of spec- no doubt some slipped through. Not a big deal.

 

If it doesn't have a star, it means it wasn't made under contract for submission to the military and is no surprise at all...

[bubba-san]

Enteresting , I never gave it much thought . I just thought it might be some kind of chinese enfluence ?

 

I have a nagamitsu that has 2 mekugi . Thanks for the information. James

[Drago]

My Nagamitsu has no star stamp (there was a discussion about N vs. Stamp recently). It has a number on the nakago mune but no arsenal stamp.

[bubba-san]

My Nagamitsu also does not have star stamp , but all of the fittings have a star stamp? . James

[Ruben]

Hi Tobias and Gentlemen,

 

I think in many, or lets better say in some cases, if a sword got new koshirae/ tsuka it was easier to drill a hole for the craftsman rather than go the other way and making a perfect tsuka/ mekugi fit.

But shure this depents on the shape, in some cases it was "necessary".

Regarding the strenght issue, Honoki wood is very soft, easy to work with, it´s more like a base material for the rest of the koshirae.

The tsuka length has to be in the right proportion to the nakago of the sword, otherwise it will not last long when in useage.

For just going out it deosn´t matter much.

What gives good strenght is, when the Same goes around the tsuka, reinforced by the tsuka maki (silk is pretty tearproof).

Just small strips on each side is easier to do, but not that strong.

I belief one Mekugi should/ can be enough, also for bigger swords with longer nakago.

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[runagmc]

Two holes had everything to do with strength and safety, nothing to do with ease of mounting.

 

It's obviously a saftey measure (incase one mekugi comes out, there is another)- but since it was used in many cases with screw type mekugi (which would seem much less likely to come out) it makes me wonder if it wasn't more to stabilize the nakago in the poorly made tsuka...

 

Or more likely, all of the above...

[cabowen]

If you read some of the accounts of what was happening during the war, you'll find that tsuka breaking from usage was a common complaint. I have been told too that mekugi failure also happened. When you think about the harsh environments these swords were used in, I don't find that surprising. The second mekugi-ana was added to address these issues. While I have never heard of adding a mekugi to make up for a poorly fitting tsuka, I can't argue with the opinion that a second mekugi would more securely fashion a loose fitting tsuka. In truth, I have seen very few tsuka that I would consider ill fitting on type 3 or type 98 swords. Wood does shrink with age so it is hard to say if a tsuka that is loose now was also loose 60 years ago.

 

Have you ever seen a movie where they show the samurai splashing sake or water on their tsuka before a battle? The moisture would swell the tsuka and tighen it. Not sure if this is just theater or real, but it makes sense.

[runagmc]

@ Ruben -

The tsuka length has to be in the right proportion to the nakago of the sword, otherwise it will not last long when in useage

 

I think the tightness of the nakago fit is much more important than the length of the tsuka. Tsuka length comes down to what is the most comfortable and practical for the swordsman (I would think)...

 

1. Softness is not a main concern in carving wood...

2. Soft woods do not necessarily break more easily...

 

Honoki is known to be firm and strong, while still easy to work with. It carves well because it has regular/even grain structure, and doesn't splinter (or break) easily. Also, its lack of sap is easy on sharp tools...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_obovata

 

@Chris- It makes me wonder how much (or how) they actually used their swords in combat to have the tsuka (and mekugi) BREAK. I would think the sword would break before a properly made, properly fitting, tsuka would - unless it wasn't fitting and rotting apart from exposure, like you said. But it doesn't seem like a second mekugi-ana would help the breakage factor (tsuka breakage or sword breakage)- only the safety factor. Also, many 2-ana tsuka were used with steel screw mekugi. You wouldn't think those would need a back-up. All that said, I'm sure you're right and those were the reasons, even if they don't completely make sense to me ...

[John A Stuart]

Chris, I think the water splashed over or even sake spat upon the tsuka, by those Shinsengumi rowdies, was to facilitate a better grip between the hands and tsuka; increasing friction. I don't think liquids would reach the wood core in any timely fashion to cause swelling. This of course does not include the ritual purification by water of the blade, by the kaishaku for instance. Just my observation and with no historical proof. John

[cabowen]

No doubt it would affect the grip....Just repeating something I have heard....Probably would need to take to those with real life experience to get past anything more than conjecture on the whole topic.

[Ken-Hawaii]

It makes me wonder how much (or how) they actually used their swords in combat to have the tsuka (and mekugi) BREAK.

 

Adam, one of the real-world waza we perform in both iaido & jodo is called taiatari, which is a collision move used to break the kamae/defense of your opponent. It's literally a body-to-body blow that just happens to have two swords in between them. I've seen the waza performed so badly that one of the bokken shattered - it's supposed to be training, not battle! - & I would expect a number of these waza would be performed on any battlefield where they used swords. It wouldn't take very many of them to do some serious damage to almost any blade, although I'm not certain where the weak point(s) would be.

 

Ken

[Ruben]

@ Ruben -

The tsuka length has to be in the right proportion to the nakago of the sword, otherwise it will not last long when in useage

 

I think the tightness of the nakago fit is much more important than the length of the tsuka. Tsuka length comes down to what is the most comfortable and practical for the swordsman (I would think)...

 

1. Softness is not a main concern in carving wood...

2. Soft woods do not necessarily break more easily...

 

Honoki is known to be firm and strong, while still easy to work with. It carves well because it has regular/even grain structure, and doesn't splinter (or break) easily. Also, its lack of sap is easy on sharp tools...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_obovata

 

@Chris- It makes me wonder how much (or how) they actually used their swords in combat to have the tsuka (and mekugi) BREAK. I would think the sword would break before a properly made, properly fitting, tsuka would - unless it wasn't fitting and rotting apart from exposure, like you said. But it doesn't seem like a second mekugi-ana would help the breakage factor (tsuka breakage or sword breakage)- only the safety factor. Also, many 2-ana tsuka were used with steel screw mekugi. You wouldn't think those would need a back-up. All that said, I'm sure you're right and those were the reasons, even if they don't completely make sense to me ...

 

Regarding the tightness of the nakago, ok that´s maybe also a factor.

You will end up with a thicker tsuka, the fuchi and kashira must be also bigger than.

In the end it´s stronger,... or wrong(weak)/ ugly fit .

Wood react different on tensile/compression- stress, but lets say Honoki is a nice material, otherwise the sayashi´s would have used different.

But the tsuka lenght shouldn´t be much more than the actual nakago, otherwise it´s a weak point created were the nakago ends combined with a long lever arm... bad idea !

 

I think also that a second mekugi wouldn´t help the breakage factor.

For just cutting down flesh and bone without armor, maybe an old rotten tsuka will do the job as well.

But when popping off from a helmet for example is total different force.

Cutting through somthing will not destroy the handle or sword.

 

Ken,

 

in kendo taiatari is making contact with the fist´s (left one is pushing) to reduce distance after/before attacking, not to knock over in the first place. Of course if someone is in waek stance he will be pushed back or fall down.

To finish someone in that way you have to do it like Shinmen Musashi, ramming the left shoulder in the opponents chest to kill him .

 

At the last event I saw two fat guys clashing together, one shinai totally broke in half.

It happens, for shure thats not good for real swords either.

In a real fight you will not wait in taiatari to shake a leg.

I would instantly give a love bite with the dagger , thats very simple and fast!

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

We see the lower mekugi-ana from later muromachi on. In older swords, we see it mostly in Shinshinto, sometimes in later Muromachi, and rarely in Shinto.

 

 

 

It's not th only one,, i've seen an ubu Rai Kunitoshi with a shinobi ana.

 

Question is : When these shinobi ana were made and why ?

[Ruben]

Hi Jacques,

 

has it somthing to do with the Tachi- kashira (old swords), cause it´s low in this case?

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

We see the lower mekugi-ana from later muromachi on. In older swords, we see it mostly in Shinshinto, sometimes in later Muromachi, and rarely in Shinto.

 

 

 

It's not th only one,, i've seen an ubu Rai Kunitoshi with a shinobi ana.

 

Question is : When these shinobi ana were made and why ?

 

 

My comment was addressing original shinobi ana, not later additions.

[george trotter]

Just on the matter of the two screw type tsuka on Type 3 gunto. I think the second mekugi/screw is more than just a safety issue (although it is safer), it is mainly a strength issue IMHO. I say this on the evidence of the screw system itself.

 

If you have seen these tsuka damaged or disassembled you can see that both screws usually enter into the tsuka through an oblong metal collar about 15mm (5/8 in) long and 8mm wide that is rebated to meet the tapered head of the screw. The threaded end is screwed into a threaded nut on the opposite side, usually the same size/shape as the collar. Both metal plates are inletted into the honoki wood and left lying flush with the surface - covered by the same. The purpose appears to be not only to hold the tsuka and blade firmly (as menuki do), but also to ensure a firm, compressing grip to hold the tsuka onto the sides of the nakago.

 

These are found as follows: 2 screws entering from the same side (either ura or omote, it doesn't seem to be a rigid rule).

Also, they can enter from opposite sides.

Also there is often 1 screw (always near the fuchi) and 1 bamboo mekugi (again entering from same or opposite sides) - you could say in this case that the mekugi is a "backup" in case the screw comes out.

Lastly, there are often 2 mekugi (no screw/s).

 

As for the two holes on earlier swords, I feel that it is probably still the same reason...a matter of security/strength. the only difference is that they did not use screws at that time (unless I am wrong?). I remember the old samurai folktale that a competant swordsman always touched the head of his mekugi whenever he took up his sword to slip it into his obi. He was checking to see it had not fallen out...he also ALWAYS kept a spare mekugi in case this happened. I suppose a two mekugi ana nakago was the logical answer to the sensible samurai (stronger and safer).

Hope this helps,

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

My comment was addressing original shinobi ana, not later additions.

 

How do you know if it is an original shinobi ana or not ?

 

 

ruben,

 

Honestly i don't know. About the purpose of a shinobi ana, I will not exclude an esoteric/religious one.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

How do you know if it is an original shinobi ana or not ?

 

 

Exactly.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Ruben,

 

has it somthing to do with the Tachi- kashira (old swords), cause it´s low in this case?

 

Answer is no .

 

This koshirae fits the sword below.