Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I am curious about a set of papers called "Nihonto Kantei Shisakai" by the seller, with whom I've successfully dealt with in the past. He describes the NKS papers as "Well-informed person meeting" which doesn't mean anything to me. Does anyone have experience with these papers? It's a fairly important sword, so I'm very interested. I posted this on the eBay forum but got no response. Aloha! Ken Quote
cabowen Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Post a picture of the papers Ken and maybe we can find out who the group is.....I think what the seller is telling you is simply that the papers come from a group of knowledgeable people.... Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 Okay, Chris, here they are: You can see why I'm interested. Ken Quote
cabowen Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I would be very cautious. There is no online mention of this group outside of a few Japanese dealers selling swords with similar kanteisho. If it were me, I would condition my purchase on the blade passing a NBTHK or NTHK-NPO shinsa. Can certainly see why you would be interested! Quote
John A Stuart Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I hope you post some pics of this Kiyomaru sword sometime. Are you maybe thinking about getting this? John Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 I already have a papered Kiyomaro, John, so I'm not tremendously anxious to get this one, but I've contacted the seller to see if he would be interested in sending it to shinsa prior to a sale. I've bought two blades from him with excellent results, so I feel he's trustworthy, but for that kind of money I'd be even happier if it had NBTHK or NTHK papers. Ken Quote
Eric H Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I am curious about a set of papers called "Nihonto Kantei Shisakai" by the seller, with whom I've successfully dealt with in the past Why not give the link to ebay? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Sword- ... 33847eeed7 Eric Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 Because I'm interested in the papers, Eric. Ken Quote
Nobody Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Why don’t you ask the seller fwic2803, who is also a member of NMB. Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 If you'll note above, I did ask him about these papers, as well as whether he would be willing to send the blade to shinsa prior to a sale. Ken Quote
Nobody Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 ...... He describes the NKS papers as "Well-informed person meeting" which doesn't mean anything to me. Does anyone have experience with these papers? ............... I thought that you were informed only "Well-informed person meeting" about the paper other than asking him to send it to shinsa. However, the information had been already given on the ebay page of the item. Quote
Brian Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Why don’t you ask the seller fwic2803, who is also a member of NMB. I wasn't aware he was a member here? I know kanetoyo2666 (Nakamura san) is a member, but don't know about fwic2803. Brian Quote
Thierry BERNARD Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 ..., but don't know about fwic2803. Brian here it is : memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1497 Quote
Guido Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 There are Kiyomaro, and then there are Kiyomaro. His best swords can go as high as ten times the starting price of this auction. Some of his later work - when he was drunk most of the time - can be bought for a song. Yes, it's that bad. This is one of the few smiths where the level of Kanteisho is of utmost importance (at least when not buying sword in hand). Quote
cabowen Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I wouldn't think you would need any sort of kantei-sho to determine a sword made by someone drunk was "that bad". I have seen many Kiyomaro and have yet to see one with bona fide kantei sho I would call anything close to bad but perhaps I have been lucky. I have doubts about this sword for a few reasons but it is, as always, difficult to say too much with any certainty due to the photos. It doesn't appear to be that bad, but it doesn't appear to be on par with his usual work that I am familiar with either. Quote
Guido Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I wasn't talking about this sword in particular. Can't say from the photos. But of course some people are simply in awe just when they see the signature Kiyomaro. I guess it's what you (are able to) see in the sword besides the Mei. I also don't think it has anything to do with luck, or being unlucky, just a discerning eye. And the price might be a good indication, too. Edited to add: great idea to play the one-upmanship game of "who has seen the most Kiyomaro"! Quote
cabowen Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I wasn't talking about this sword in particular. Can't say from the photos. But of course some people are simply in awe just when they see the signature Kiyomaro. I guess it's what you (are able to) see in the sword besides the Mei. I also don't think it has anything to do with luck, or being unlucky, just a discerning eye. And the price might be a good indication, too. Edited to add: great idea to play the one-upmanship game of "who has seen the most Kiyomaro"! Was speaking from personal experience which I think is relevant to the discussion. I have been fortunate to have seen many Kiyomaro and have yet to see any "drunk" examples of bad work from this smith. I have seen even more fakes that people sometimes try to pass off as "drunk" work, but as you say, a discerning eye has everything to do with properly identifying those. I don't have any need to play games and for me it isn't about some immature competition, it is about the truth. Disappointing that you would see it that way....can't really help it if my experience has been different from yours but apologize if that offends you in some way. Quote
Brian Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Not to put words in anyones mouth, but Guido never said some Kiyomaru work was terrible. Merely that comparatively speaking, not all of his work is on the same level. The fact that some of his work can be picked up "for a song" says to me that the prices vary wildly...for work at this level. That doesn't mean that it is cheap...just cheap compared to his top works. I don't want constant back and forth nitpicking. If you can pick up one Kiyomaru at $50K, and another at $350K...that says something. I don't know if this one is right or not...I don't really care either. I wouldn't be buying a Kiyomaru from online pics if I ever got to that level anyways. Brian Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 FYI, fwic2803 is Mitsuhiro Takaya, Brian, but I don't know if he is an NMB member. I've found him to be a very straightforward seller, & hope he responds positively on sending this Kiyomaro blade to shinsa. Like Chris, I've seen several Kiyomaro blades, & none of them have had any major problems, but at least two were definitely inferior in quality to the others. Glad mine isn't one of those! Ken Quote
kunitaro Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Kiyomaro was heavy alcoholic as we know... and there is famous Drunk mei sword(s), but the blade is perfect.. I remember that Kiyomaro's Kozuka with TH paper was sold $ 25K or 28K in the past. and I have never seen Kiyomaro katana less than $200K, However, The Paper (on this one) doesn't say that the signature is genuine. It is saying that ”美術刀剣と鑑する" It is attribute as "an art sword" The seller say that "This item is guaranteed to be original Japanese antiques.This item is Japanese traditional hand made item." it doesn't say the signature is genuine either. as I advised a few time before in this forum, you can always ask the seller if he can guarantee to pass "Hozon"... but, it is a bit silly question for this one.... Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Posted August 12, 2013 but, it is a bit silly question for this one.... Kunitaro-san, what are you seeing on this blade that would make it "a bit silly" to ask the seller to send it to shinsa? I've already done that, but don't feel silly about it. Ken Quote
cabowen Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 What he is saying is what I alluded to- the blade is not a genuine Kiyomaro. The pictures make it tough to see clearly as I said but the hada is nowhere near what one would expect, nor is the hamon up to his usual level of quality. The fact that it does not already have proper papers and that it is on an online auction says the rest. I too have never seen a properly papered Kiyomaro sell for less than six figures. But I have only seen a few genuine items for sale over the years. Some of the best fakes I have seen were thought to have been done by Tsukamoto Okimasa who is said to have made quite a few. By the way Ken, never hurts to ask.... Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Posted August 13, 2013 So what you're saying Chris & Kunitaro, is that NKS papers are essentially worthless, right? That's really what I was interested in knowing. Ken Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 Morning all, Somewhere on NMB is a photograph of a group of high end Japanese collectors of the best quality Kiyomaro blades. If I remember correctly, the gist was that they deal amongst each other and the best blades never see the "oxygen of the open market", so to speak. Cheers Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Posted August 13, 2013 Right, Malcolm. Kunitaro posted a photo at http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12916&start=15&st=0&sk=t&sd=a. I'm hoping to attend in November. Ken Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 Thanks Ken, Is the grave site at Zojoji 増上寺 which is near the old Tokyo Tower? Cheers Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Posted August 13, 2013 Yes, that's the place, Malcolm. Ken Quote
Eric H Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 People should read carefully „Paper levels and their effect on value“...and consider why a „Kiyomaro“ is at auction on ebay. Eric Quote
Brian Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that this is shoshin, that was never really up for debate The question was more about the papers. Brian Quote
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