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NKS Origami?


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I am curious about a set of papers called "Nihonto Kantei Shisakai" by the seller, with whom I've successfully dealt with in the past. He describes the NKS papers as "Well-informed person meeting" which doesn't mean anything to me. Does anyone have experience with these papers? It's a fairly important sword, so I'm very interested.

 

I posted this on the eBay forum but got no response.

 

Aloha!

Ken

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I would be very cautious. There is no online mention of this group outside of a few Japanese dealers selling swords with similar kanteisho.

 

If it were me, I would condition my purchase on the blade passing a NBTHK or NTHK-NPO shinsa.

 

Can certainly see why you would be interested!

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I already have a papered Kiyomaro, John, so I'm not tremendously anxious to get this one, but I've contacted the seller to see if he would be interested in sending it to shinsa prior to a sale. I've bought two blades from him with excellent results, so I feel he's trustworthy, but for that kind of money I'd be even happier if it had NBTHK or NTHK papers.

 

Ken

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...... He describes the NKS papers as "Well-informed person meeting" which doesn't mean anything to me. Does anyone have experience with these papers?

...............

I thought that you were informed only "Well-informed person meeting" about the paper other than asking him to send it to shinsa. However, the information had been already given on the ebay page of the item.

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There are Kiyomaro, and then there are Kiyomaro. His best swords can go as high as ten times the starting price of this auction. Some of his later work - when he was drunk most of the time - can be bought for a song. Yes, it's that bad. This is one of the few smiths where the level of Kanteisho is of utmost importance (at least when not buying sword in hand).

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I wouldn't think you would need any sort of kantei-sho to determine a sword made by someone drunk was "that bad". I have seen many Kiyomaro and have yet to see one with bona fide kantei sho I would call anything close to bad but perhaps I have been lucky.

 

I have doubts about this sword for a few reasons but it is, as always, difficult to say too much with any certainty due to the photos. It doesn't appear to be that bad, but it doesn't appear to be on par with his usual work that I am familiar with either.

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I wasn't talking about this sword in particular. Can't say from the photos. But of course some people are simply in awe just when they see the signature Kiyomaro. I guess it's what you (are able to) see in the sword besides the Mei. I also don't think it has anything to do with luck, or being unlucky, just a discerning eye. And the price might be a good indication, too. ;-)

 

Edited to add: great idea to play the one-upmanship game of "who has seen the most Kiyomaro"!

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I wasn't talking about this sword in particular. Can't say from the photos. But of course some people are simply in awe just when they see the signature Kiyomaro. I guess it's what you (are able to) see in the sword besides the Mei. I also don't think it has anything to do with luck, or being unlucky, just a discerning eye. And the price might be a good indication, too. ;-)

 

Edited to add: great idea to play the one-upmanship game of "who has seen the most Kiyomaro"!

 

Was speaking from personal experience which I think is relevant to the discussion. I have been fortunate to have seen many Kiyomaro and have yet to see any "drunk" examples of bad work from this smith. I have seen even more fakes that people sometimes try to pass off as "drunk" work, but as you say, a discerning eye has everything to do with properly identifying those.

 

I don't have any need to play games and for me it isn't about some immature competition, it is about the truth. Disappointing that you would see it that way....can't really help it if my experience has been different from yours but apologize if that offends you in some way.

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Not to put words in anyones mouth, but Guido never said some Kiyomaru work was terrible. Merely that comparatively speaking, not all of his work is on the same level. The fact that some of his work can be picked up "for a song" says to me that the prices vary wildly...for work at this level. That doesn't mean that it is cheap...just cheap compared to his top works. I don't want constant back and forth nitpicking.

If you can pick up one Kiyomaru at $50K, and another at $350K...that says something.

I don't know if this one is right or not...I don't really care either. I wouldn't be buying a Kiyomaru from online pics if I ever got to that level anyways.

 

Brian

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FYI, fwic2803 is Mitsuhiro Takaya, Brian, but I don't know if he is an NMB member. I've found him to be a very straightforward seller, & hope he responds positively on sending this Kiyomaro blade to shinsa.

 

Like Chris, I've seen several Kiyomaro blades, & none of them have had any major problems, but at least two were definitely inferior in quality to the others. Glad mine isn't one of those!

 

Ken

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Kiyomaro was heavy alcoholic as we know... and there is famous Drunk mei sword(s), but the blade is perfect..

I remember that Kiyomaro's Kozuka with TH paper was sold $ 25K or 28K in the past. and I have never seen Kiyomaro katana less than $200K,

 

However, The Paper (on this one) doesn't say that the signature is genuine.

It is saying that ”美術刀剣と鑑する" It is attribute as "an art sword"

The seller say that "This item is guaranteed to be original Japanese antiques.This item is Japanese traditional hand made item." it doesn't say the signature is genuine either.

 

as I advised a few time before in this forum, you can always ask the seller if he can guarantee to pass "Hozon"...

but, it is a bit silly question for this one....

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What he is saying is what I alluded to- the blade is not a genuine Kiyomaro. The pictures make it tough to see clearly as I said but the hada is nowhere near what one would expect, nor is the hamon up to his usual level of quality. The fact that it does not already have proper papers and that it is on an online auction says the rest.

 

I too have never seen a properly papered Kiyomaro sell for less than six figures. But I have only seen a few genuine items for sale over the years.

 

Some of the best fakes I have seen were thought to have been done by Tsukamoto Okimasa who is said to have made quite a few.

 

By the way Ken, never hurts to ask....

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Morning all,

 

Somewhere on NMB is a photograph of a group of high end Japanese collectors of the best quality Kiyomaro blades.

 

If I remember correctly, the gist was that they deal amongst each other and the best blades never see the "oxygen of the open market", so to speak.

 

Cheers

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