The study of menuki

[Pete Klein]

I'm getting a woody... ! ROFLMAO!!!

[Alex A]

Good to see a clear pic of menuki in original muromachi mounts. ive come across yamagane and shakudo menuki of this era (none for sale). Which would be the more common for a sword of this era?

 

Alex.

[Ian]

How do you tell if they are Goto or another great school with out seeing the back?? And Please do not cut them out to take photos to show!!

Everyone please share your menuki knowledge!

 

I personally need my X3 glasses to look at anything now

[Justin]

Further to Mike's post of the oxen, please find below an example from my collection.

 

Hanare Ushi (Ox) Menuki

32.2 mm and 33.8 mm

Glossy black shakudo, gold iroe

Momoyama period

NBTHK Hozon paper to Ko-Goto

 

[Pete Klein]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! LOL!!!

 

I just love these old pieces. Thanks J!

[Soshin]

Hi Mike Y. and Justin,

 

Thank you very much. These are excellent examples of early menuki and are helpful to my research.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[BMarkhasin]

Gents,

Regarding Ezo works, few people have had sufficient exposure to the real, good old pieces (either disarticulated or still mounted) to know the difference between these and the late Edo revival which pervades the market. I have devoted many years to this study, and this group is dear to my heart and core to my interests. It is curious to me that those with the least experience as collectors seem to have the most vehement opinions… it boils down to education and exposure. With the early materials, there is such a paucity of relevant material, that it comes down to exposure.

I also wish that we had not inherited the term Ezo, contextualized culturally, for this group of fittings, as this is absolutely unfounded. Originally, I believe these fittings did have a northern origin, but not Ezo. Oh well, this isn’t the only poorly labeled and misunderstood group out there. Ezo is not for everyone. I often think they are rather naïve, simple and unobtrusive compared to Edo kinko - they can be considered somewhat crude. I like that simple character, while others prefer something shinier, or even modern repro works. To each their own.

 

As Curran correctly pointed out, there is a limited but insightful set of studies / essays on Ezo, written mainly by western collectors. I have seen a couple of unpublished essays in Japanese which are complementary to the western works. Look to the work of Tom Buttweiler in the 1970/80’s – he wrote a very interesting article which can be found in Bushido magazine, Vol. 1, #2. There is a reference to a metallurgical test of a fairly early piece by in Kodogu by Gunther Heckmann. The Rosin Collection book has an interesting article as well by John Harding. I have an essay in the KTK 2008 book on Ezo Fittings, which includes metallurgical analysis on a number of pieces. A lot more work needs to be done on this group of fittings. There seems to be a relationship to armor in the early examples, so perhaps armor enthusiasts will also take up this torch.

 

Work permitting, I will be in San Francisco later this year, and I will bring all the Ezo fittings I have left for anyone who wants to handle them in person. You will be able to compare items from the Kamakura to early Edo periods, and observe differences in workmanship, metallurgy and construction / finishing techniques. Make your own observations and reach your own conclusions. At least you will then be able to say you reached them after actually having seen/handled an item…. Novel concept in some circles.

 

I will provide copies of the KTK article (save you buying the book), and the Bushido article by Buttweiler for those interested. For those interested in metallurgy, I will gladly share data from SEM work, so you can hold the kodogu and contextualize the analyses. Additionally, I hope to be able to bring examples of uchigatana koshirae, so people can see Muromachi fittings in their original mountings. Robert Haynes will be at the San Fran show, so you may have the chance to pick his brain on the subject of early menuki (tosogu) as well.

 

Best,

Boris.

[kaigunair]

Boris, look forward to meeting you in person at the SF show and learning more about early fittings!

 

Pete, well, don't I have egg on my face on that "attribution" . I have not paid any attention to the tomei school, but will look it up when I have the chance. There really isn't much good advice on how someone wading into this area should proceed, what schools to study, etc...no established coursework per se even if someone did spend $$$ on books. And some times it does feel like pulling teeth from those "in the know" to get such an education .

 

Its threads like this that make this forum so great for new students like myself. The controversy around "Ezo" fittings will be forever burned into memory even thought I am yet interested in this area of fittings. I am always very thankful for those more knowledgeable tosogu students and sensei's who regularly post and pm great insight, ESPECIALLY when they disagree! I'm sure they honor their various sensei's, as I hope to do so should I continue to collect and study for as many years. In the mean time, gotta build up that thick skin and get ready for the next egg......

 

(looking at how this thread went, I still find it funny how I ended up being the first response on this thread, and I did wait a while hoping for someone to chime in. again, props to Brian for maintaining such a great forum )

 

edit: how ironic, just finishing up the index translation of wakayama Vol 5, and guess who I found has a few pages at the end of the book starting on page 250.....awabo is definitely nea-to!

[Fred Geyer]

Great reading on menuki , sorry have been in the road and not in the discussion with my post.

Mike brings up my next question on these, everyone says "need to see the back" to see who did it or what school.

What do you look for on the back side? What finish, hits, thickness..so on, to make a good "back"?? or to tell a school??

 

Fred Geyer

[Alex A]

More oxen menuki, late muromachi/early edo, shakudo ko-kinko, nbthk hozen. Oxen seem a popular theme

 

Alex.

[Alex A]

I bought these very simple, non intricate, but cute long eared Hare/or rabbit? menuki recently. The previous owner thinks they may possibly be shakudo, i think there probably yamagane. Early edo? or ko kinko? maybe, im not sure. Ive seen a very similar pair recently labelled as ko kinko. Any help appreciated. Not sure i should have put the post here, just seemed fitting as its the study of menuki.

 

Alex.

[Ron STL]

Oxen seem a popular theme More oxen menuki, late muromachi/early edo, shakudo ko-kinko, nbthk hozen

 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist showing what I affectionately call "Ron's cattle farm," my collection of oxen menuki. A number of these would be Momoyama era (specifically the ones with gold spots) and other would fall into early Edo, middle Edo. The gold pair are late Edo by Kikuchi Tsunatomo (mei plates on reverse), the only signed pair of the bunch. For years I purchased most oxen menuki that came my way, if of good quality, in order to compare workmanship and techniques used to make and decorate them. One thing that fascinated me was to pay attention to the "hair" between the horns of the oxen and how that was represented.

 

By the way, it was the late Tom Buttweiler who got me interested in early menuki and tsuba back in the mid-1970s.

 

Ron STL

[Alex A]

Pure class Ron, pure class...

 

Alex.

[Brian]

......

Fantastic, and look at the colour of some of that shakudo.

 

Brian

[raiden]

I am getting ready for the show, so I'll keep it short and simple (I hope).

This is for the backs:

usually what I was taught was to look for style of manufacture,

file marks on the finished edges

The pin, but not always - just as a reinforcement as they are often replaced.

tagane marks - easy example is misumi for their triangular marks

from the backs we can see if something is foiled or solid

and of course if it is signed....

 

in the case of Goto - when under the wrap, we cannot always see the tagane kiwame marks that is sometimes on the edges of the menuki.

See you all at the show!

Mike