shinshinto katana question

[davidtorez]

Ive been studying mainly shinshinto blades for the last few months in books and bought couple shinshinto swords. Most shinshinto blades that i have come across have very flat niku for some reason. Is it because shinshinto blades have been repolished many times that has made them this way? Ive seen more koto blades that have more niku than the shinshinto blades I own and have seen. Whats the reason for this?

Cheers,

Dave

[Ken-Hawaii]

Dave, newer blades (Shinshinto are several hundred years newer than Koto) are unlikely to have been "polished many times." None of my Shinshinto blades have noticeably less niku than my Koto blades, so if yours do have less, my only thought is that they are specific to that smith, or you have bought blades which have been heavily repolished for some other reason.

 

Ken

[davidtorez]

Hi Ken,

 

Thanks for the response mate. Actually my shinshinto swords are very healthy with plenty of hamachi and munemachi left, and thickness at the kasane is exactly same as the thickness at the nakago kasane indicating only few polishes. Even the shinshinto swords i have seen in photos and diagrams, they pretty much look all flat niku style rather than rounded. It could be smith specific, i dont know, which is why i am asking the question here. Ive seen plenty of healthy kotos with more niku than healthy shinshintos. Maybe time period or something??

Cheers,

Dave

[nagamaki - Franco]

Yamanaka gives specific mention to the types of 'niku' and/or the lack there of for particular smiths in his descriptions if that's of interest. Also, it has been my experience that this is one area that separates truly good polishers from the rest, that is proper development and placement of the niku when it applies. A polisher who is not properly trained can cause much harm in this way too.

[davidtorez]

is yamanaka an author? I would be interested in reading his book if so. any where can i purchase this? i tried googling with no luck. Or can you post some excerpts of his work here?

Cheers,

Dave

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Dave,

 

Try searching for Albert Yamanaka - 1921 - 1983

 

Also Nihonto Newsletter.

 

Cheers

[nagamaki - Franco]

http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_publications.htm

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Even the shinshinto swords i have seen in photos and diagrams, they pretty much look all flat niku style rather than rounded.

 

Did you take these blades in hand or just make this assumption based on photos ? If so, please notes that photos can be tricky.

 

Like Ken, my shinshinto blades are full hira niku. :D

[davidtorez]

Thank you everyone for partaking. This is one photo i could find which looks like the niku on my shinshinto swords i own

http://www.legacyswords.com/Sold/fs_ant_daito18.htm

 

So which smiths in shinshinto period made swords with flat niku?

Ill take some photos of my two blades to show. They got same profile as the sword shown in the link above.

Cheers,

Dave

[Ruben]

Dear Dave,

 

what about this, is it flat or not:

 

Regards

 

ruben

[davidtorez]

Hi Ruben,

 

The way the light is reflecting off the hiraji tells me this sword has bit more niku than my shinshintos. Mind you, theyre not completely flat, as you know polishers stones are rounded in shape which give the blade a convex shape. My blades just seem to have the least amount of niku , your blade looks nice by the way, whos the swordsmith?

Cheers,

Dave

[cabowen]

I don't recall seeing rounded stones at any polisher's workshops I have visited. The skill of the polisher is what leaves the niku on the blade. They roll it across the stone. This is one thing amateurs rarely do correctly.

[davidtorez]

Hi Chris,

 

Maybe "rounded" didnt describe what i had intended to mean. From what i have read and see the polishers stones are not completely flat but have a slight convexity to it to help produce the niku. Ill find some pictures or links and post them. Might be easier to see what im talking about that way. Thanks for contributing.

Cheers,

Dave

[Ron STL]

While I can't say specifically where I heard this before, likely several places, one kantei point for recognizing shinshin-to (often copying swords of Nambokucho times) is the lack of niku. This characteristic can be very subtle and certainly not "in your face" kind of recognition thing, but it something to look for. I do believe this characteristic is mentioned in the kantei points section of various books and very likely in Yamanaka's writings, his Nihonto Newsletter from the 1960's. I wouldn't think this could be seen from photographs. You must handle and study swords from the various periods to really gain recongnition of this subtle "lack of niku."

 

Ron STL

[Jean]

Niku after more than 500 years of polishing tends to disappear. Cf. tetsugendo/Miike Mitsuyo

[nagamaki - Franco]

Speaking of niku and polishers, when it comes to niku, the ability, skill, and experience of the polisher cannot be emphasized enough. In discussion, one polisher described that not only did he have to reshape one sword by moving the shinogi line to give the sword a proper appearance, which had never been fully corrected after undergoing a naoshi, he also had to lower the niku as the previous old polish had left it too high from where it was supposed to be, this all on a sword where the kassane was only 2.5 mm. If you think about this, even being generous this polisher might have had in total only another 1 mm of width to play with. Choose your polisher wisely.

[davidtorez]

Found these polishing stones as example of what im talking about in regards to convex shaped polishing stones:

 

http://swordpolish.net/html/new_studio.html

 

Cheers,

Dave

[cabowen]

Have a look here at a Japanese professional polisher's stones:

 

http://blogs.dion.ne.jp/togishi1/archives/cat_348049-1.html

 

Sometimes from use they get a hump in the middle, but normally they are nearly flat. Some may be rounded a bit for special applications. Also see The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp. I think they describe how the blade is polished to preserve the niku.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruben]

The way the light is reflecting off the hiraji tells me this sword has bit more niku than my shinshintos. Mind you, theyre not completely flat, as you know polishers stones are rounded in shape which give the blade a convex shape. My blades just seem to have the least amount of niku , your blade looks nice by the way, whos the swordsmith?

Cheers,

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

thank you, it is just the very boring part of the hole blade on the picture.

Yes I belive the Niku seems pretty prominent, but this sword seems to be in his first polish or so. It is heavy and the ha is ubu with big funbari.

The sword is not signed, and its hard to tell who could be the atari. I can´t provide more pic´s cause it´s at koshirae- makers place (since 2 years ).

 

Regards

 

ruben

[runagmc]

The convex shape of the stone is very important in shaping the surfaces of the sword. The finer polishing stones like uchigumori I think are usually kept a little more flat than the rough shaping stones.

[Danocon]

It is a trap to think that the shape of the stone shapes the sword. As in all things, looking from the outside into a complex art-what we think we know to be true is almost never right.

 

The polisher shapes the blade and he shapes the stones to facilitate the process. A rounded stone (convex) means that only a small part of the stone and blade are in contact with each other. This affords more control to the polisher. It also means there there is no flat reference plane on the stone to help keep the blade true.

 

The blade comes out of yakire (hardening) with the edge about 1.5mm thick. The polisher or even the smith will foundation polish this edge to sharp in zones. Zone 1 is the edge itself. Zones 2-6 vary in width and curvature (niku) all the way to the shinogi.

 

The width and curvature of each zone is totally up to the polisher. I cannot emphasize enough that the trueness, curvature and definition of the blade is totaly dependent on the polishers skill and "feel" as he moves the blade against the stone.

 

In my opinion this is far more difficult than the actual forging and maybe the highest example of manual control of a surface.

I can forge and shape a blade but true polishing is very daunting indeed.

[davidtorez]

Thank you to everyone for participating in this interesting discussion. However, i think its gone a little off topic, i think. Is the general consensus for shinshinto swords having slim niku that they were intended that way or a result of continual polishing over time? In comparison to the niku that the rikugun jumei tosho swords that were made in the 1940's, do the rjt swords have flatter niku or similar to most shinshintos?

Dave

[runagmc]

It is a trap to think that the shape of the stone shapes the sword. As in all things, looking from the outside into a complex art-what we think we know to be true is almost never right.

 

The polisher shapes the blade and he shapes the stones to facilitate the process. A rounded stone (convex) means that only a small part of the stone and blade are in contact with each other. This affords more control to the polisher. It also means there there is no flat reference plane on the stone to help keep the blade true.

 

The blade comes out of yakire (hardening) with the edge about 1.5mm thick. The polisher or even the smith will foundation polish this edge to sharp in zones. Zone 1 is the edge itself. Zones 2-6 vary in width and curvature (niku) all the way to the shinogi.

 

The width and curvature of each zone is totally up to the polisher. I cannot emphasize enough that the trueness, curvature and definition of the blade is totaly dependent on the polishers skill and "feel" as he moves the blade against the stone.

 

In my opinion this is far more difficult than the actual forging and maybe the highest example of manual control of a surface.

I can forge and shape a blade but true polishing is very daunting indeed.

 

Your right that the shape of the stone does not shape the sword, obviously it's not that simple... but the curvature of the the stones used for shaping fascilitates the proper "grinding" motion that allows for the proper shape.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the off topic

 

According a polisher i know, the stone are made convex to avoid becoming concave. If so it will be very diffcult for the polisher doing a proper work.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/togi,process.html

 

 

Back to the niku. Most of the Shinshinto swords have niku, this one is very important in Satsuma or Gassan, and "not full" in Tegarayama Masashige. Maybe the Bizen Yokoyama will be among the flatter.

[jeremy]

From what ive read Kiyomaro and Koyama made swords with slightly flat niku also.

 

Kind regards.

 

Jeremy Hagop

[Brian]

Basically, it is swordsmith and school dependent, and not era.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

It also depends on the intended usage of the sword. Swords lacking in hira-niku are more apropo for cutting soft targets, rather than armor. One sees less niku in later blades, in general. WWII era blades, as well as shinshinto, usually have less, in comparison, because they weren't intended to be used against opponents in armor.