Do you use your nihonto for tameshigiri?

[kunitaro]

Dear Jean san,

 

Thank you for your follow up (again).

you were so quick !

Revived an old memory.... Thank you.

 

I met mr.Helm at that time.

I was with my friend and young Fusahiro ( a sudent of mr.kanefusa )

we drunk Sake together with mr.Yoshindo.

all of us were complete drunk.

mr,Helm and Hirofusa were doing arm wrestling in Izakaya.

I still have photo with mr.Helm pissing together !!!

 

Tanobe sensei was a student of Kunzan sensei.

When Kunzan seisei was losing his eye sight.

Tanobe sensei was staying by Kunzan sensei, looking at the sword, telling Kunzan sensei what he see. for Kantei.

Tanobe sensei was Eye for Kunzan sensei.

 

It is very nice to see Sayagaki of both.

That sayagaki is written before Kunzan sensei lose his eye site.

after a few years from the Sayagaki, Kunzan sensei start losing his eye site,

the Letter start obstruct,, became un-readable....

also, Kunzan and Kanzan sensei did Sayagaki for not genuine blade, because, some person whom they can not refuse.

so, they used different ink.

you can recognize the quality of the blade by checking ink of Sayagaki,

 

Best

[k morita]

Hi,

I have heard that if Japanese-sake is added to black ink when making black ink on an inkstone(suzuri), the gloss(brilliance) of the black ink will increase.

But i didn't try it.

[kunitaro]

Morita sensei,

 

Sake desuka !?

mmm.

I know there is several kind of Sayagaki,

an old master polisher ( a student of Hirai Chiba ) gave me lessons to see Sayagaki.

He has maybe 50 old Sayas with Sayagaki,

when you compare two different Sayagaki, it is easy to recognize.

but, if you see single item, it is very difficult to judge.

same as swords,

however, the world of 書(sho) is much deeper than sword. i think.

 

Tanobe sensei is using ko-tankei.

He is a Sho-dogu freak ! he has great collection of Suzuri and Sumi,

when i ask about Sho-dogu.

he is always very happy to explain, and he gave me a book of Tankei suzuri with his signature..

but, he doesn't tell me such a secret parts of Sho !

...yet....

 

we have to read letters behind letters.

 

mmmmm.

[sencho]

 

...did Sayagaki for not genuine blade, because, some person whom they can not refuse.

 

 

 

 

I think some Western people may have difficulty to comprehend this, because I think it is very Japanese... :D

 

Thanks Kunitaro san, your posts are very interesting.

 

yorosiku!

[Jean]

Giri?

[Baka Gaijin]

I've heard the term Onegai おねがい used.

 

Cheers

[kunitaro]

a bit more about Sayagaki

 

As you see Kunzan seinsei's Sayagaki,

Shouwa Mizunoe ne Shiwasu (1972 December)

There is Personal name. Under Date

 

Sorry I can not read... Morita sensei...

 

Normally, we don't ask to write owner's name on Saya.

except, the personal level is higher than the sword.

plus, the owner's name is above Kunzan's signature ???..

we can imagine what kind of person the owner is,

 

plus December... (Most busy time of the year,,,)

we don't ask for Sayagaki in such moment of year.

maybe he wants to celebrate New year with the sword... but, still.

you feel that he has no respect for the Master Kunzan and The Sword !!!

He is saying "IT'S MINE !!"

Egoistic selfish man,

To put your name on the object is something,,,

the name will stay as long as the object stay....

 

we can imagine situation when Kunzan sensei was doing Sayagaki,

The owner was believing that the sword is Hosho Sadamune !

He pushed Kunzan to agree to be Hosho.

if Kunzan doesn't agreed, Sword will get treat bad....

so, he did it with different ink. to save the sword.

They are not doing Sayagaki for us to study,

They are doing for saving the sword.

 

And the Blade itself is great quality in highest level.

 

This is my imagination....

All masters knows 100 time more than us,

if if anything awkward there is reason for it.

so, we have to read the text behind the text.

 

If we are humble enough, it will talk to you.

If we are quiet enough, we will hear the master's voice.

 

However,

to make Sayagaki is the personal responsibility....

NBTHK is taking responsibility, but no personal responsibility..

More than one person make decision after discussion.... so nobody need to take responsibility.

If you understand the Quality level of the sword, Sayagaki can talk much much more than Hozon or Juyo papers.

[k morita]

Here it is.

[kunitaro]

Morita sensei

 

Sakurada Mishiba

 

I don't know him, There is no result from Google,

so, He is not higher than Kunzan sensei, then Not higher than the blade....

 

We have to bow to the sword...

Had he ever thought about it ? or he did it on purpose ???

[kunitaro]

We came very far....

Should we go back to Tameshigiri ??

[Hans Kondor]

Hello guys,

 

about funbari, these Takeda swords are very interesting to me: http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss514.htm

This sword has a very straight blade. The seller writes: "at times they were sought out because of their cutting ability and sturdiness."

From the writings of Kunitaro, it would sounds me the opposite and I would think that a blade with curve shape cut better than these straight swords.

 

Also one question about this sword, to me the sageo, ito looks new. Is it common that dealers not write to the informations that which parts of the koshirae are renovated?

[kunitaro]

Dear Hans,

 

That sword is a bit after Kanbun period style.

a bit more sori than Kanbun (straight)

but, the blade had a bit Suriage (shortend) so, lost Funbari, and Sori became more straight.

which is good for Tsuki, less cutting, but should be thick Haniku. they were made to use.

however, it is not very useful for modern Iai, a bit short...i think.

 

best

[Hans Kondor]

Kunitaro san,

 

thank you very much for your reply and expertise!

[runagmc]

Hans, the curvature of a sword is called sori. There are terms like saki-sori, tori-sori, koshi-sori, mu-sori, uchi-sori... they refer to different types of curvature. It sounds like you might be confusing sori and funbari...

 

About dealers... I don't think something like new sageo would normally be mentioned...

[Hans Kondor]

Hello Adam,

 

thank you for your reply. I didn't say that there is no funbari on that sword, just was interesting to me that in the previous post, I thought and still think that a decent curve is good if a blade has for cutting.

 

I think you are right a sageo would be definitely mentioned, but I think there are more things on that sword which are newly made, but my question was not just for that particular sword, but to any others, that I saw it many times that dealers not mentioning several replacements like new saya, ito, sageo etc.

[Ken-Hawaii]

To head back towards the original tameshigiri question, there is a much longer thread on the topic at

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29627

. Some applies, some doesn't.

 

Ken

[kunitaro]

This is almost same in Japan.

Matial artist would talk about technique or movement (or target to cut etc,.), not much attention to the sword itself.

and Sword collectors are busy with sword itself. not much attention to Budo.

 

I think that Samurai understood both in one.

At least till Meiji period,

 

After ww2, the situation has changed big time, because, Japanese sword had to survive as an Art object.

so, Art sword collectors and Matial artist has separated....

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, not quite all of us, Kunitaro-san....

 

Aloha!

Ken

[Hans Kondor]

Thank you Ken for the link, it was very exciting to read.

[kunitaro]

And i forgot to confirm that Sword Oil is only for Shirasaya.

 

Never put oil on blade into Lacquered Saya of Koshirae.

[Hans Kondor]

Kunitaro san,

 

why can oil be used only on swords in shirasaya?

 

And if oil cant be used, what you suggest to use? or nothing is needed?

[kunitaro]

When you use your sword (cutting), you don't want your blade any oil..

as you know, water is good for cutting but not oil.

when you put oiled blade into Saya. the oil will stick in Saya.

when you put dried blade into oiled saya...

and when you draw the sword, the sword is oiled....

 

Shirasaya can be opend to clean inside of Saya. that is the shirasaya for.

Lacquered Saya can not open to clean... the oil will stay forever in Saya.

in 10-20years time The old oil into (through) wood till Surface which covered by Lacquer, that will damage Saya.

 

for the blade in Koshirae should keep it just DRY.  Inside of Saya as well.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon Kunitaro san,

 

I had heard that in the past, some Japanese people would not lightly use an old blade for Tameshigiri, because of what might be contained within the blade.

 

The late Dr Carmen Blacker touches upon this in her 1975 work on Shamanistic practices in Japan: "The Catalpa Bow".

 

Do you have any comments regarding this?

 

Cheers

 

PS Thank you for your insightful input on NMB.

[Hans Kondor]

When you use your sword (cutting), you don't want your blade any oil..

as you know, water is good for cutting but not oil.

when you put oiled blade into Saya. the oil will stick in Saya.

when you put dried blade into oiled saya...

and when you draw the sword, the sword is oiled....

 

Shirasaya can be opend to clean inside of Saya. that is the shirasaya for.

Lacquered Saya can not open to clean... the oil will stay forever in Saya.

in 10-20years time The old oil into (through) wood till Surface which covered by Lacquer, that will damage Saya.

 

for the blade in Koshirae should keep it just DRY.  Inside of Saya as well.

 

And if I don't use the sword and put the dry blade to the saya, it will not get rusty later?

[sanjuro]

Hans.

 

I think this is the point that Kunitaro san makes. In practice, a sword was not kept mounted for protracted periods of time. Only when used was it mounted. At all other times it lay oiled in a shirasaya in order to protect it from rust. I guess this is where the collector who is not also not familiar with custom or who is not also familiar with the sword in its practical sense, makes a slight mistake in keeping a mounted sword oiled. Under normal circumstances a blade and its koshirae are meant to be kept and also displayed separately. Quite apart from the fact that an oiled blade is undesirable when using the sword, the risk in keeping a sword mounted and with a dry blade is ultimately of course rust. Alternatively, in keeping it oiled and mounted, the koshirae itself will suffer in time. A mounted blade also gets scratched more easily by its saya, since the koshirae saya is a closer fit to the blade than a shirasaya, and any soiling is apt to be abrasive.

It makes a good case for keeping your blades and their koshirae stored correctly.

[David Flynn]

Unless of course, one does not have a Shirasaya.

[kunitaro]

Dear Hans san,

When you are not using the sword (more than 1 month or so), You can make a shirasaya to keep the blade oiled.

That is why it is called "Yasume(rest)-Zaya" or "Kura(storage)-Saya".

However, as a samurai (an owner of the sword) to maintain your weapon 24/7 is very basic.

My Kunimasa katana has never been oiled, because, it is always in Koshirae. and I am always taking care and been ready to use anymoment.

[kunitaro]

Dear Malcolm san,

 

I had heard that in the past, some Japanese people would not lightly use an old blade for Tameshigiri, because of what might be contained within the blade.

The late Dr Carmen Blacker touches upon this in her 1975 work on Shamanistic practices in Japan:  "The Catalpa Bow".

 

Whom did you hear from ?

unless, the meaning of "an old blade" is un-clear.

Tameshigiri was get popular since early 17th century.

I start to think that if i can find out When,Who and How this theory started...

 

After Meiji period, perspective of sword has changed.

and

Since 1951 Register system for Japanese sword, 

The Japanese sword became recognized as an art object.

And Budo becmae a sport.

 

I have never read Dr.Carmen Blacker (sorry), however, Japanese culture, Shinto is full of Sharmanism.

I think that Japanese sword is a spiritual tool, Budo is Spiritual act. Tameshigiri is a part of it as well.

[chrisf]

Is it a reference to the fact that tameshigiri can represent the killing blow with a sword?

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

Whilst on the surface, The act of tameshigiri can be seen to represent a killing blow with a sword, It is however practiced as an excercise in becoming one with the blade and executing a perfect cut. This can only be done against a target. Under the code of bushido as it was practised in bygone days, those targets could and often were the bodies of criminals either alive or dead. A warriors' life depended upon his skill with a blade. This is no longer so although we pursue the spirit of swordsmanship that those warriors once aspired to. In this enlightened age we seek the perfection of the cut without the human target.

Budo in its many forms is but the spiritual essence of what bushido once physically and spiritually represented. This at least is how I have always viewed it.