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Darcy

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Everything posted by Darcy

  1. The anecdote is primarily to illustrate why you want to use rice glue and not wood glue. For the rest: 1. swords are not straight 2. it is getting harder to find ideal blocks of wood for shirasaya 3. the shirasaya goes on a metal object, which means you have a living size changing object and a relatively stable object and they are expected to maintain half-millimeter tolerances in all weather conditions, and it cannot be made to be perfect in this situation Back to the end grain analysis, take the tsuka off the shirasaya and look down the tsuka and ask me what is facing your noggin (end grain). That end grain is going to shrink and expand like the chunks of wood in my anecdote. The interior space is going to open up and it is going to close down. When this happens at the mouth of the shirasaya and the habaki is in place there tightly, this acts as a wedge and splits the shirasaya down from this point. When this happens, you pick your poison: the glue breaks or the wood breaks. As for the rest, I know the theory and I built a lot of things from wood. Humidity can make it so loose that a sword with habaki on it will fall right out and the tsuka will fall off. Humidity can make it so that the tsuka cannot be removed and that the sword will not fit in the shirasaya anymore, even discounting the habaki. All of this implies large amounts of shape change. I split my thumb to the bone on a Yosozaemon Sukesada that was stuck fast in the shirasaya by this compression force. I should have backed off but I applied a lot of muscle and when the thing broke free I ended up hitting the edge of the blade with my thumb. Didn't feel a thing. Didn't know for sure I was cut until I flexed the thumb and the flesh parted like the red sea. In Montreal in the winter, a lot of my swords would go only to about half the depth of the habaki and be in tight. These were Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo and not junk wood involved. After the Yosozaemon I was very careful about how I set them up as winter came. When they arrived from Japan they fit just fine and no binding at all. Everything made to spec. After winter, swords often came out along with sawdust. So, theory is nice, but when it butts up against reality the theory needs a bit of tweaking. With all wood, whenever you move it from where it's built, to where it's going to be, if you have large humidity and temperature swings you are going to get wood movement. If the thing was designed to allow movement, you won't get failure. If it was not designed to allow movement, you get failure. Shirasaya are not a technology that was meant to be employed far away from its place of creation. They were not designed with wood movement in mind. For the most part the sword deals with being put in tension and compression by the shirasaya and because it is what it is, the situation manages itself until it goes to an extreme. When it hits the extreme, the shirasaya fails, and as mentioned, choose the glue or the wood at that point. Take your average well made shirasaya and have it sit empty and it should mostly be fine. The stresses the wood is under are below the failure point of the glue and the wood. Put the sword in and you have a different situation. Have a non-ideal piece of wood and you have another variable.
  2. Shirasaya splitting along the seam is a feature. It's not a problem. When you glue wood you have a choice of what you want to be stronger: the wood, or the glue. Modern glue is a lot stronger than wood so once it binds you get a lot of stress that builds up in the wood as humidity makes it change its shape. The resulting force usually gets released at some point by ripping the wood. I once made a square frame of wenge and used a bunch of end-grain-up inside that was scrap wood and made a nice butcher block table. I wasn't aware of the problem of wood moving with humidity. I made this in summer. The bonding surfaces on this wood were about 3 inches x 2 inches usually. When the stress released it was like lightning struck inside my house. It ripped in half the wood blocks all through the center of the tabletop. So imagine taking a block of wood, 3 inches high, 3 inches long, 2 inches wide and just pulling on either side until it rips. This is pressure that the wood exerts on itself due to humidity changes. So when you put wood glue in a shirasaya you are playing the same game. If humidity moves the shirasaya you will rip the wood and kill the shirasaya and the release of energy is maybe going to damage the sword. Rice glue being weaker than wood, the rice glue will gracefully fail before any problems occur. In which case you finish splitting the shirasaya, take the opportunity to clean the inside, and then you simply reglue it. It is better to just finish the splitting of it and redo the whole thing than to patch it, because half of it is probably still under some stress, just not the level to make it fail yet. You need to test carefully for fit before gluing. Anyway just wanted to insert why you want to keep wood glue far away from your shirasaya.
  3. hiro-suguba: wide ... you look at it and go well, that looks unusually wide. chu-suguba: normal ... proportions are just right hoso-suguba: narrow ... made a bit thin ito-suguba: string ... very very narrow They are just notches on a ruler. In the case of ito-suguba it should give an impression of almost being on top of the ha, like a string laid just above the cutting edge, but if you look at it in smiths like Yoshimitsu or Shintogo, it will have all kinds of super fine activities in it.
  4. Mizukage at the machi is a sign of tempering rather than retempering. When you see mizukage in combination with suriage, you have conflicting information: the nakago tells you that the machi is not original, and the hamon tells you that the machi is original. So, that is where you end up with the conclusion of retempering. Mizukage can be removed somewhat with hot copper and I think maybe the Hizen smiths did this, I don't know much about it but some other guys do. In this case I don't think what you see is a sign of retempering. But I agree it looks weird.
  5. The NBTHK is trying to create more daylight between Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon, this is true, we see it in the revised standards. But I think this is mostly objective and not subjective in nature. It is also true that Hozon represents basically authenticity and lack of fatal flaws (without period and maker exceptions). There is a cycle of tightening of standards when people complain about other people's items getting papered, and this is followed by relaxing of standards when people complain about their own items not getting papered. It ebbs and flows. I am not personally aware of any concrete example from me or other people who have had something come back as a failure for Tokubetsu Hozon after passing Hozon for reasons of "subjectively, not beautiful enough." (Edit: I am implying swords, I don't have enough fittings experience and I am under the impression that everything for fittings is a bit harder than it is for swords.) I could see one (sword) failing for condition being extremely bad, but I have owned things that were Shinto blades in poor condition and still had Tokubetsu Hozon. I am just lacking a single concrete example to show a failure state. Let alone the large assumed quantities which are out there. If the blade is not rotted out or has a horrific problem of some sort, and is Shinto and meets the objective standards, it is going to go Tokubetsu Hozon in my experience. And the NBTHK in the past allowed you to make the jump from Hozon to Juyo (as you point out). That indicated from their point of view as well that there was not a lot of daylight between the two levels, and even now you can submit to Tokubetsu Hozon in one go unlike Juyo and Tokuju. So even with tightening standards, the way it is treated is that Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon are joined at the hip compared to the long leap to Juyo and the even longer leap to Tokubetsu Juyo. It makes sense for them to take a system which essentially had four ratings to it: 1, 2, 5 and 10 And try to hammer this out so that it is more like 1, 4, 7 and 10 That is indeed the goal but ultimately people are going to complain and that will always push 1 and 4 closer together. Though this makes pure logical sense to try to increase the gap between Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon, it also makes financial sense because you force people to pay for one more level before going to Juyo. The last set of reasons involved here are that Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon are judgments of the item, whereas Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo represent winning a competition. Whether or not you achieve Tokubetsu Hozon for a piece has no impact on any other pieces, nor do those pieces have impact on yours. It is or it isn't. This will forever weld Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon together as they just rate the competency of the piece, and to date, the requirements for competency to achieve Tokubetsu Hozon have been well within the range of smiths with known signatures.
  6. Juyo, and Tokubetsu Juyo level works are the only immunity of this problem. The reason for this is that the yakuza were working out of the branch offices and these were decided centrally. Also the Juyo and higher level works had all the top experts on them, the others did not. As such, Juyo doesn't even have any consideration in this conversation and I'm not sure why it's brought up. The problem is focused on blades that would be candidates for Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon. Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon do not have enough daylight between them to make any difference between them to be any of an issue. Looking at these things distracts from what the real issue is. The accuracy of old green/white/blue papers. It begins there and it ends there. Many of those predate Tokubetsu Juyo, remember that as well. Trying to raise a point of immunity for low level judgments is missing some important information. Every time I write about gimei and every time I write about this issue here, I discuss the practical aspects of fakery. I cover it above in the example of the Echizen tsuba where the tsuba is less than the value of the papers (I am referring to something I personally own in this case) and the financial risk involved in the judgment being wrong is so small (not that the judgment cannot be wrong, but that there is nowhere DOWN for it to go) and as such there is not too much reason to worry or motivate one to exchange those papers. There is actually motivation still in some cases and will bring that up later. It is something that I hope is self evident that if, say, someone could fake metals, they would turn their attention to faking gold rather than faking tin. So with swords, that the risk moves in lockstep with the value attached to the judgment. In this I agree, the risk decreases as a fakery target with the level of the attribution achieved. I said several times "green papers = no papers", and I said that when the name gets significantly big enough then the only thing you can rely on is that the paper is an anti-paper: the item in question is made by anyone except for the person named on the paper. However, the wrong takeaway from that is that there is immunity for anything. That seems to be a driving point, that this piece can be determined to be immune from this problem, and that is not true. As soon as you say fakers only fake gold, and you don't have to worry about tin, they will turn around and fake tin because it's an easy thing to pass off as nobody expects it. As such we cannot too strongly anticipate what a faker will or won't do. Basically it is just this: green papers are a pile of crap that have so much cancer in them the whole thing becomes extremely risk laden. You can take them, at best, as an honest nod in the right direction. They may end up being confirmed, but the risk is high that they are nothing better than a nod in the right direction regardless of the level of what is on there. The financial risk is not the same as the accuracy risk. Because it can be wrong and yet do no damage. It can also be wrong and within the fungibility zone where it doesn't matter. po-Bingo, po-Bungo, same thing. The reasons why nothing gets a free pass for accuracy though are: 1. The problem is not limited to outright fakery: it involves bad judgment and lax standards. 2. As above, trying from one's armchair to second guess the levels at which a faker will take action is futile. 3. new data Quoting Tanobe sensei: "There were indeed some collectors who could not understand why their swords acceptable in the former system did not clear the new system and asked for reasons. Even then, we were able to gain their understanding and consent by explaining that it was due to certain factors, such as the new quality standards introduced in the new system, differences in viewpoints between old and new Shinsa staff, and discovery of reference materials providing new data." "new quality standards" = "old standards were so bad they were incorrect" "differences in viewpoints between old and new Shinsa staff" = "some people were issuing judgments that did not have adequate expertise (i.e. they didn't know what they were doing)" Because the judgment has a high percentage chance of being wrong. What is the point of having a wrong judgment? There isn't any. Doesn't help you as a buyer, or as a seller, or as a student. Furthermore it will mislead you as a student into making wrong conclusions on future items. Thus, you are basically buying and supporting your own mis-education. Bear in mind if the item is signed or mumei it can actually be upgraded. Because it is just not a one-way trip here we are talking about. Bad judgment is bad judgment. It is not necessarily overshooting, it can be undershooting or just shot in the wrong direction but the right distance. green papers = no papers Green papers doesn't mean the item is garbage. Green papers means the PAPERS are garbage. Case in point #1: Well known western expert (who is not me), is smart and praised on this board finds a suriage wakizashi with a Hankei signature on it and Tokubetsu Kicho papers. This goes for next to nothing in Japan because it has green papers and a big name and people are not stupid. But, because people also do not study they are not able to look at the blade and determine exactly what it is. They just know my rule above "if you have green papers and a significantly large enough name, it is a virtual guarantee that the blade is made by anyone except the name on the paper." So, this smart guy looks at the blade, knows what it is, buys it, removes the mei and submits to Hozon and it passes as Shizu Kaneuji and is actually a Juyo candidate. Now, go back and think about it. People too uneducated to know much will buy it as Hankei. Someone smart enough to know that it's got a bad paper buys it for next to nothing and sells it to the guy less smart than him as the real deal. Someone even smarter than them all removes the mei and papers it to Shizu. All of what I am saying applies to this case. Case in point #2: I bought a blade with green papers to Tametsugu and someone had already resubmitted this and got Sue-Sa. Sue-Sa is to Samonji as Naoe Shizu is to Shizu, however, the Sue-Sa smiths are generally higher level than the Naoe Shizu smiths. In this case the judge was just wrong to put it to Tametsugu but he was hunting in the right zone. It is a Nanbokucho period Soshu derived work. The NBTHK took pains to point out as well that this was a direct student of Samonji. In other places they usually break out Sue-Sa as meaning: Sa Yoshisada (Jojo), Sa Yasuyoshi (Jojo), Sa Yoshihiro (Jojo), Sa Sadayuki (Jojo), Sa Kunihiro (Jojo). The Naoe Shizu smiths are more in line with Jo-saku and Tametsugu is also Jo-saku. Without them specifically saying a direct student of Sa or else spoon feeding what Sue-Sa means, one should conservatively take it to mean the extended Sa school. So anyway in this case then this blade was upgraded. Though the original judge was hunting in the right area of Soshu influenced work, he was off the path as Samonji mon and Norishige/Go Yoshihiro mon are quite different and he underrated the skill level of the blade. Then, why would you want to replace your paper? Because these judgments are frequently wrong. Wrong does not mean that they are necessarily overstated, though this is the faker's manifesto: it mostly means they are WRONG. How wrong can they be then is the next question? The NBTHK has even overturned Rai Kunitsugu at Juyo and made it Awataguchi Hisakuni. This is not the longest leap, and this is just stuff at Juyo that had fairly good judges on it to begin with. It's just that in this case they relied on old attributions and gave it some benefit of the doubt and actually mention it on the back of some of these setsumei. Tokubetsu Kicho though does not even have the benefit of older more solid judgments. It just has random poor judging on it a lot of the time, before getting to the outright fakery. Maybe your Tokubetsu Kicho Enju can come back as Awataguchi. That should be enough motivation for anyone to consider getting a modern attribution on an old blade. It has happened that Enju has been reattributed as Awataguchi. More than once. However, maybe it will come back as Bungo Takada. As long as it got out of the fungibility zone you might learn something. Taking this out of the equation still, the basic reason to exchange it is because it's got a large chance of being wrong and if you want to learn from it, learning from bad judgments will teach you how to make bad judgments. Coming back to the goal I have with this: it is to raise awareness that green papers = no papers. I am reading it is "superstition" (it is not). I am being accused of "being a dealer" (not sure how this affects the facts of the case, but it is a good emotional card to play). It is handwaved away as being overblown (buy that green papered Shinkai and find out it is valueless and then ask yourself how much this opinion restores the money you lost). It is dismissed as "I got a bunch confirmed" (which is evidence that the risk in the leftover pot has increased, not decreased). All kinds of fallacies and emotional arguments and guns being pointed at me and cocked over ringing the warning bell aggressively. However, once you discard any reliance on that old attribution, now you are free to judge on your own with a clear mind and that is what is necessary. You should have all of the standard worries then about big names and you should have all the standard worries about simply making a wrong kantei of your own. That paper cannot be your crutch into an answer nor can it be the seller's crutch to sell it to you. It's a paperless blade at this point and has all the pros and cons of that. So the green papered Shinkai you can ask, is that Shinkai a real Shinkai? If not, what is it? Probably nothing significant once you erase the mei on it. In the case of the Hankei, it wasn't a real Hankei, but it was a real Shizu. The reason the Hankei mei ever worked on it is because he copied Soshu and Norishige in particular, but the blade was not Norishige style at all. It is a double edged sword: I only want people to doubt the paper as the first and most important step. The big upset for me is seeing a dealer selling a green papered Shinkai and saying for sure this is real Shinkai but no guarantee. Someone is going to fall for that and they shouldn't. (Edit: I of course can always be wrong, but if you say you want to make a bet with me, and you will take the number six on a dice roll and I get numbers 1-5 I will take that bet every time and I will be right far more than I will be wrong). When I saw that, I said to myself, enough of this BS. I am going to ring some bells and people will get pissed off at me but so be it. For the rest, once they get it out of their heads that a green paper means anything significant, they need to put on their thinking cap. If it is an ubu Shinto work and looks like a Shinto work then it is probably a Shinto work. If it is being traded in the community for 37 years as a green papered Shinkai then the least likely judgment of that piece should be Inoue Shinkai. Taking that away you need to start from first principles to decide what it is. Mentally remove the mei and if the result is random Shinto work then that is what it is: random Shinto work. No immunity for anything greenish. Just reduced financial risk for lowball attributions and meaningless fungibility for the lowest of the low, at worst. However, if you buy a gimei Hankei for $1,000 and it is a Juyo capable Shizu, then the real financial risk is sitting on it and keeping the green papers. Knowing whether your gimei Hankei is a Shizu that someone slapped a Hankei signature on, or if it is a kajihei, is a matter for study and skill. If you have a collection of green papered stuff that is your study library, well... hard to learn anything from bad attributions.
  7. Or, having degrees in mathematics... Here is the basic problem. Here is the set of Tokubetsu Kicho papered blades, some good, some bad: xxoooxxooxxoooooooxoooooo NBTHK makes this announcement: the Society's Local Shinsa of Kicho Token was disgraced by an intrusion of local organized outlaws in March and the other involving forged certificates widely circulated in the autumn, the Society had entrusted the Metropolitan Police Department with investigation into those regrettable incidents. After eight months' thorough investigation by the authority, eight persons in the forgery ring were arrested and twenty-eight more connected with the ring have been sent the police reports to the public prosecutor. Everyone who owns a Tokubetsu Kicho papered blade or is selling one unanimously declares: I KNOW WHAT I HAVE AND MINE IS GOOD Except, some percentage of these blades are bad and nobody really knows which the good and bad ones are. Just, anyone who actually owns one refuses to believe it happened to them. This we know cannot be a universal truth, at the same time there are enough bad blades that people get arrested and prosecuted and the NBTHK wipes out a class of papers AND everyone who owns these blades has universally avoided ending up with a bad blade. So, the NBTHK opens the door and says bring in the old papered blades, we will re-examine each one and re-issue an attribution. Or deny it new papers. So let's run a little simulation of this algorithm of replacing Kicho type papers with Hozon type papers. (Had to edit this twice, first lost all my UTF8, replaced those with emoticons, got that blocked) So on year one: Hozon = Kicho = xxoooxxooxxoooooooxoooooo Year two Hozon = ooo Kicho = xxoooxxooxxoooooooxooo Year three Hozon = ooooooo Kicho = xxoooxxooxxoooooox Year four Hozon = ooooooooo Kicho = xxoooxxooxxooox Year five Hozon = ooooooooooooo Kicho = xxxxooxxooooox Year six Hozon = ooooooooooooooooo Kicho = xxxxooxxox Year seven Hozon = ooooooooooooooooooo Kicho = xxxxxxox ... Now if you grab a Kicho type blade in year one, the chances are that any particular blade you pick, you will be picking a perfectly fine blade. In year 7, good luck. There is still one good blade in there for you to find, but the chances of finding it decrease. This is just pulling two to four good blades out of this simulated barrel of blades per year vs. our simulated original set. It is intended to demonstrate the forces at work when you have finite sets and a filtering algorithm. If you have a pool, and you filter good water out, you will find out that what remains behind in the net is dirt and garbage after a long enough period of time. If you run a fishing net through the water in the swamp, the water will pass through and you will accumulate algae and junk in the net. It's the basic concept of filtering and this is what was set up with the NBTHK: to filter out the good blades from the old types of paper and leave behind garbage, until you can effectively just take the garbage that is left behind and disavow it. I am guessing there were about 30,000 Kicho type papers made and probably in the first year a large chunk of those got exchanged, and every year it is diminishing returns rather than a flat number going through. That would be a good statistical assumption to make vs. any other model. But it doesn't matter at what rate they are converted over: Every year it is harder to find a green papered blade that will legitimately pass on its face. As this algorithm proceeds into the future, it is unidirectional: the items left in the Kicho bin on average decrease in likelihood of passing as the good blades are filtered out. Does it mean all of them are bad? No. Does it mean you should be careful? Hell yes. With each month, every good blade remaining that gets pulled and put into the Hozon bin makes the concentration of bad blades left over go up. When I am saying green papers = no papers, I'm not strictly saying green papers = gimei. I am saying that you need to treat it as an unpapered situation at this point in time, so you need to remain skeptical. And the bigger the name on that paper and on the blade, the more likely someone will have tried to convert it in the past so as to eliminate doubt and increase value for their item. So when you get to the extreme of a Tokubetsu Kicho papered zaimei Soshu Masamune, you have a 100% guarantee that this is no good. If it were Awataguchi Hisakuni or Yoshimitsu or anything like this, it's about the same. Someone would have run that thing back into the NBTHK and removed all doubt. When you get to the other end of the extreme, like an iron tsuba papered Echizen, well, those papers may just sit there because anyone with eyes collecting tsuba should be able to verify the attribution, and the attribution is not promising the moon and stars. It's just not worth $250 to replace the paper. The tsuba is probably worth less than the papers. So, you just keep that green paper and put it as a useful opinion. People are trying to handwave the green paper problem away with this anecdote: "I found 10 green papered blades and papered all 10 to Hozon, it shows that this is hogwash." This anecdote actually proves the problem, that 10 more good blades got pulled from the bin and converted out, leaving behind a greater concentration of bad blades. As well for the person doing this in bulk: buying green papered blades by the hundred, they will filter out all the good ones and convert them to Hozon and sell them with no doubt = highest profit because there is no risk premium. What does not pass, goes back to eBay or any other venue for selling with the existing green paper and gets cycled back into the market. Then this anecdote of "but I found all these good ones" is attached to the ones that didn't pass. Finally if someone is finding all these good blades and converting them to Hozon and then selling one that is not converted, why did this one get excluded from the conversion process? These anecdotes are nothing other than appeals to emotion. The issue with green papers is fact and published by the NBTHK. The mathematics of the issue magnifying over the years is incontestable, and can be understood by a 10 year old. It has nothing to do with superstition. Warning people has nothing to do with profit motive. Actively buying and selling questionably papered blades is where the profit motive is, not in raising awareness of the issue. If anyone selling a green papered blade truly believes it is legitimate then they will have no issue with providing you a 2 or 6 month guarantee that it will pass in an upcoming shinsa. If they won't back their words with anything tangible then that tells you the value of their words. And anyone who wants to say that this is not a problem I have some green papered Kiyomaro and Kotetsu and Shinkai that I can provide to you with a couple of quick phone calls. The price is really good. Other notes: In 1991, about 10 years after the replacement of the old system with Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon, the NBTHK was still receiving about 10% of submissions being upgrades from the old system. Tanobe sensei notes that after Juyo shinsa in 1991 they received a record number of 3,400 items for initial shinsa, so 340 of those items approximately were green papered items trying for new papers. He says part of the high number being submitted during this shinsa is due to suspension of Hozon/TH during Juyo processing for three months. So we can maybe extrapolate this 3,400 number into about 15,000 or so submissions on an annual basis and 1,500 green papered items being attempted for replacement papers per year. In 1991. This is likely tapered off from past years as mentioned. But even if it is a flat percentage, we're talking about 15,000 items in total for the first 10 years that got yanked from the bad bucket, and examined. Good items passed into Hozon and bad items thrown back into the ocean. So by 1991 a number somewhere close to half of the existing bad papered blades were already reassessed. That more than doubled the percentage of bad blades left in the Kicho bag. In 1991. 27 years ago it was half cleaned out. The responsible stance on green papers and that whole family, is doubt. This is the beginning and end of it: the sane, mathematically backed, factually backed, risk management backed stance, is doubt and only increases every year. As such it relies always on the person making the extraordinary claim to provide extraordinary evidence.
  8. There is only one Juyo and it's the one example they are showing in this reference. It is not uncommon to find these Ko-Bizen smiths with just one signed example left and sometimes the smith is completely unknown. They authorize it though because the signature is of the right age to be on the blade, that is the blade looks 700 to 1000 years old and the signature looks 700 to 1000 years old and there is no difference between the signature and the body of the nakago if you're trying to "carbon date" with your eyes. So it goes on as a valid signature on a valid blade except we just don't know the guy as he escaped being recorded. Learning example here. Note on the paper (と銘がある) You need to know this. Because very few people will draw your attention to it. I have this on one of my blades and I indicate it and explain it (Norishige tanto). This reads as "To mei ga aru" and basically says (there is a signature). If the NBTHK thought it was gimei they would not paper it. This wording indicates that the NBTHK thinks it is of the right time period but they are currently unsure if it should be entirely included into the representative signatures of the smith. So it is on the fringe, requires study, and maybe there is some disagreement among the judges. You need to be able to recognize that on papers when it's there so you can make an informed decision. So this is a good example to look at and understand the context it is being used in. As for misunderstanding it as Soshu Masamune, be aware that there is a Ko-Bizen Norishige, a Ko-Bizen Yukimitsu, a Ko-Bizen Mitsutada and so forth. They covered a lot of ground in the names! Signed examples exist of all these guys so when you see one you need to check the rest of the description to be sure you know what the context is. Another note, variations on "to mei ga aru" can be added to shumei and kinpunmei and kinzoganmei. This means something similar but different, because it is not applying to the signature now but it is an implication toward the judgement that that signature represents. So, it is basically "there is an attribution to" instead of "there is a signature of" in terms of how you read it. In the first case they are not doubting the conclusion of where it is attributed, they are making their own attribution and then putting the signature in the grey area. When there is a gold or lacquer signature, now they are putting the attribution in the grey area by using this phrase. This indicates a degree of doubt about the judgment involved. There is a Juyo Masamune with Honami Koyu kinzoganmei and signature. NBTHK put (there is a gold inlaid signature). That then is them taking a half step away from this. The blade still passed as Masamune but if you see that note you need to dig into the paper and check the context. Context context context. If you encounter a Yukimitsu though that goes Tokuju and it looks like Sadamune and they say they're tentatively accepting an old judgment of Yukimitsu, but it is certainly one of the top Soshu smiths, you need to do the head math and see they are ruling in Sadamune as a possibility because Yukimitsu traditionally had a wider range in his use as an attribution target than he has now. If they say they have their doubts about Yukimitsu as a judgment and it bears some Yamato hallmarks elsewhere in the work now you need to do head math and see they are ruling in Taema as a possibility. Inside some of these Honami kinzogan mei type attributions, the commentary reflects on the attribution and how the judges feel about it. Sometimes this is leaning positive with doubt, sometimes negative with doubt. If you see "the attribution needs further study but it is certainly work of a high level Soshu smith" and this thing has a kinzoganmei Masamune on it you need to understand there is no direction up for that thing to go so the only direction is down. It means maybe Shizu, maybe Yukimitsu as more likely candidates. You need then to consult the style, because you could also go to Go, Norishige, Sadamune, depending on which direction the blade is taking you. If it is two steps from Masamune they'd just refuse to paper it. There is another Juyo example of Rai Kunitoshi in kinzogan and that blade the commentary says it is more likely Rai Kunimitsu. On another the blade has kinzogan Kaneuji with no judge and they let that sit while papering it to Naoe Shizu. The handwaving involves there being multiple generations of Kaneuji so this then is directed toward the 2nd generation who is by way of not being the Shodai, one of the Naoe Shizu smiths. They are leaving these in place because they are trying to act like the law when there are conflicting rights at work. They don't want to wipe out the Honami judgment as there is still some percentage chance that it is OK and they respect the fact that the Honami saw blades that we do not get to see today. But on the other hand they do not want to jump in with both feet and say that this is doubtlessly correct. So it exists in this grey area and you need to use your brain to factor in the various potentials and what that mean to you as a student or a buyer. None of this says the blade is a bad blade, when it's used. They passed Juyo 59 times and this notation is on Juyo Bijutsuhin and on two Tokubetsu Juyo as well. It is found on some kodogu too.
  9. Pardon me John, but: You don't know me well. We've had some email discussions. And this line is meant to discredit me, saying that my comments are not worthy of being taken seriously because I sell swords. My advice on green papers and holding oneself as an expert over the NBTHK and NTHK is meant to protect people from being defrauded. I don't have any horse in the game on a Muramasa selling for 10-20% of market price with a class of papers well known to be unreliable. Two people have horses in that race, the seller, and the buyer. The seller can distance himself from the situation by saying here it is, you decide. I know that if I were selling a Muramasa I would be getting Hozon on it so I can ask $25k instead of $5k. The seller did not ask a price that represents a guarantee of legitimacy for Muramasa. Anyone with some operational experience in Nihonto has to understand that. Please do not try to tar me as a dealer as a means of discrediting advice you don't want to hear. Please do not claim you "know me well" when you don't and use that to preface your dismissal of my advice as being dealer talk. I don't deserve either. One reason why people like me do not try to wisen up chumps in the first place is because when you drag someone kicking and screaming into the light you get punched in the face as they flail their arms and legs about. They do not want to hear it, they want to remain in the land where their belief is not challenged. By keeping this blade and not asking anyone, you can honestly try to sell it to the next person one day as an unknown quantity and this is one reason why people will not want to get an answer on a controversial blade. If this were me I would put these green papers in the garbage now so that the blade doesn't injure someone in the future and sell it unpapered when the time comes or with Hozon or an NTHK paper if either one of those panels will agree on it. This is part of the disease on these green papered blades and each collector who buys into this idea spreads the disease one more step down the line. Forever someone is going to want to believe the dream on this, and instead of talking to experts and learning from them, when these experts do not want to put their blessing on this treasure, it creates the desire to attack the experts. You can attack the ideas if you want and form your own conclusions. You can believe in this blade if you want, nobody will tell you that you do not have a right to come to your own conclusion: you do. You don't have the right to attack my credibility when I am the one not financially involved in this transaction. Honestly, it is a difficult moment whenever I am faced with these situations and half the time I don't say anything and I let people continue flounder in the dark. I know if I say what I know it is going to create backlash: people who have something at stake, for instance owners of and future sellers of green papered blades, will defend what they have because they want to maintain their value. There are a lot more of them than me and it's easy to die a death of a thousand cuts as everyone who owns a green papered Masamune takes aim at me because they want a place to deposit their Masamune in the future. I do not take financial benefit out of helping people avoid fraud, other than helping to bring a bit of order to the community and not see newbies chased off as soon as they find out they got defrauded on their first blade by an old timer. In that manner, everyone benefits. We have more people in the hobby, there is more demand for legitimate things, and fewer newbies can get raped by people who have been around the track already. This is a game of musical chairs fraud in this hobby. People get burned and rarely eat the mistake but pass it off to the next person. This causes the next person to have to either absorb the fraud or pass it off. Usually the next step after absorbing it or passing it off is "is this hobby worthwhile for me to stay in?" The answer to that more often than not is no. So, no, I am not advancing some fraud-proofing advice in order to help myself out and it should not be dismissed because I said it as a dealer. No, you are not better than me nor is your knowledge better than mine because you are a collector. If anything you are the one who will benefit if you can convince other people that this is a legitimate blade, not me, so if you want to consider anyone being in the crosshairs of mixed motives at this point, it's only you. Don't drag me into that. You are aware of the risks in a piece like this and you bought it. Even though it is at 10-20% of a low or no risk Muramasa price in the marketplace, you don't think that this signals any issue with the reliability of the attribution it carries. Fine, maybe you are right, but you won't follow up either to get the answer of what the experts have to say on this blade so you will never get confirmation. I don't know how you became an expert higher than the NBTHK and NTHK so that they don't have to tell you what you have. We all rely on them to tell us what we have every day. But that's up to you. Lots of guys have come and gone with this opinion and I know what badbadbaddealers say about them when they light up their cigars and smile. So, believe what you want. I will not tell you what to believe. However, it's an angering moment when I try to do something right for the community and people use that to attack my credibility. That's why others stay silent, they are smarter than me. And why I stay silent half the time, because I need my head to stay on my shoulders. A lot of the time I try to at least hint when I can't say the full story because of the attacks it will bring me. It's not the people I'm trying to help that are going to try to remove my head. As to this: I go straight to Tanobe sensei and I take his guidance and correction. I don't pretend to know more than him and I am not one of these guys who "knows what he has." I have an opinion. If someone with this level of experience and knowledge tells me my opinion is wrong, I listen to it and I learn from it and I adjust my opinion. I know that any piece I have that I formulate my own opinion on, it may be wrong, because I am not stupid enough to think that my opinion lies at the same level as Japanese experts who have their life into this. Furthermore, I relish the opportunity to test my opinion. So, if I found a blade I think is Muramasa, instead of hiding it from the experts because "I know what I have" and then keeping my head firmly stuck in the sand and attacking the credibility of anyone who might disagree with my opinion, I bring it straight to the guys who know better than me and say, I think this, what do you think? In the case where I thought I had a Shizu I went out and asked and they all said Shinto. I sold it as Shinto, I didn't mind finding out I was wrong and I didn't advance my theory to sell it vs. what the experts had to say. When I thought I had a Nobukuni and Tanobe sensei said probably Soshu Sadamune, I sold that as Nanbokucho Soshu because his opinion and mine overlapped with this information. When you sell such a blade under that title and then show him the letter after he bought it that he has a 50/50 chance of winning a major lottery on that blade, that is a good kind of thing to disclose after the fact. I did not think Sadamune when I found that blade but if I was afraid of the expert opinions and didn't ask, I'd never learn anything. And on the day when Tanobe sensei hands me a blade and asks me what it is, and I say Masamune, and I ask him what it is, and he says "I don't know yet, no papers, no decision yet." One year later I see that blade pass Juyo as Masamune, I feel good about what I said but I don't get to that point without sticking out my neck and bringing in things and being wrong and then learning from the experience. You can never learn anything if you already think you know. The judgment of that level of expert always has value in it: PARTICULARLY WHEN HE TELLS YOU YOU ARE WRONG. That's how you improve. If nobody stands up and says no, you're wrong, you never get better, you just flail around in the dark with no metric and no frame of reference to decide which way is up. With Tanobe sensei you always need to walk in and be ready to be told you were wrong, and listen, and adjust yourself to match reality instead of adjusting reality to match yourself. Right now I have an amazing Takagi Sadamune that just passed Juyo and hasn't gotten its papers yet, and I think it is Soshu Sadamune. I am bringing that blade to Tanobe sensei and I am not selling it until I can talk to him face to face over this. I want to get his guidance. Is this a conservative judgment that he will weigh in on and does it have a chance at reattribution at Tokuju? If so I will try to advance that ball. I don't "know what I have", I put this blade to my own kantei as Soshu Sadamune before hearing how it papered, and I hope I am right. I am not going to sell this and pass this line on to a sucker that it IS Soshu Sadamune, and they need to "know what they have" and just don't ask the Japanese experts but trust your gut. If Tanobe sensei says nope, this is dead on Takagi Sadamune, that's how it will be sold and I will use this information to tune my own knowledge about the grey area between the smiths. That grey area will come more into focus for me. I will not stick my head in the sand however, out of pride or greed, and say the experts are wrong and I know what I have. These assumptions you are making about me: really, I am here. I can be asked. I don't know who made you an expert on what I do and don't do, but you're flat out wrong on both counts here. Adjust your judgment at least where it comes to me, but if you want to go around and believe in $5k Muramasa being sold on ebay instead of having the papers fixed and going into a shop in Ginza, that is a belief you are welcome to have. I can't say that is a guarantee of it being no good, but it is pretty close. If you want to roll the dice, you roll the dice, and if you win, you win. But all of the evidence points to this being a risky place to go to. As long as you are cognizant of the risk, you have no problems then at all. You will win, or you will lose on your gambit. But you don't get to plug your ears and say "I can't hear you" when people say that there are weak indications in a situation like this and this type of thing more than any other requires experts to weigh in and analyze. My job trying to help noobs not get suckered into green papered Kotetsu ends with saying, here is a seatbelt, here is why you should use it. If someone wants to say "pfft, I don't need one, I'm a good driver," I don't argue with that. I'll let the car accident confirm what I said. I'm trying to avoid NMB because of stuff like this at the moment. I won't be able to follow up. I wish I wouldn't have to launch this kind of missile and would just let my blog speak for itself, but I have to write once someone starts saying what I do and don't do and why I do it.
  10. This item: http://www.ebay.com/itm/112522233866 My name is being attached to followup discussions by this seller. They contacted me saying it was a family blade and they wanted to understand the value and possibly sell it. I told them I felt very good about the mei on first glance but it needed to be studied. When asked about consignment I said I can't do that without getting Japanese authorities to sign off on the mei, as a solid opinion will reduce risk for the buyer and increase valuation for the seller. The seller is promoting this on ebay as being completely genuine by everyone's opinions consulted. That was certainly not the picture I painted for them. My initial very positive opinion was presented with a degree of uncertainty and as requiring further study and ultimately my opinion was not the critical aspect, but authentication by authorities was and there was no guarantee of that happening. My name has subsequently been attached in discussion of a $20k valuation, as well as one of the people who consulted as-per the eBay listing and them it is assumed that since all experts gave "absolutely genuine" as a response, that I must be one of these people. This resulted in my friend sending me email "Did you really value this at $20k?" The seller did not come out and say this was my valuation, but said it has been valued at this much, and at the end of their email, said they had extensive discussions with me on it. For the sake of clarity: I did not examine this piece other than looking at the photos which are now on eBay. I did not and do not give an opinion as absolutely genuine. I did not and do not give a valuation of $20k. Furthermore, I did not make any offer of my own after researching the signature so that should tell you what you need to know about my own conclusions. I've asked the seller to stop using my name to promote the authenticity and valuation of their piece.
  11. I wrote this long and I deleted it all. First, this crap about who needs papers, buy the blade, blah blah usually comes to me on my website. It's almost always old guys who got ripped off. They have some junk that some dealer sold them that will never paper. The guy who sold it probably bought a rusty mumei piece from this sucker at the same time, and brought it to Japan and got it attributed to Ichimonji or an equivalent. And he left behind or traded or passed over or sold out a piece of junk. In doing so he says: "Don't send that to Japan. That blade is so good the Japanese are going to keep it and you won't ever get it back." So that guy believes this line of crap. He believes he is special. He sells his rusty blade that ends up being an Ichimonji. He keeps the piece of junk. He is told "You have a good eye. You know what you own. You don't need papers to tell you this." This insulates this piece from ever being put in front of a judge. The fakery is never exposed and if it is, this guy has huge doubts if nobody ever just simply confirms what he knows in his heart to be true. These guys email me every few weeks with their garbage. They tell me they got it a long time ago and blah blah blah. I tell them well, if you want your Masamune to be accepted in the market, you need to get some attributions done. This is where the resistance starts. I am not sending it to Japan I am not blah blah I know this is legitimate I don't need papers blah blah. I try hard to explain to them. I say look, your opinion is fine if you want to keep this. If you want to sell it, I can't stick my neck out on it and you need someone to judge it. It's got a good chance of not being legitimate. Now, this is the part where they squint at me and look sideways. Their hands cover their item. Their thoughts: "This guy is trying to steal my treasure." For _____'s sake I do not want your steaming pile of crap. I am trying to give you the 1% chance that it might be legitimate to come true and I am not going to defraud the next guy the way you got defrauded. I don't say that, but as soon as they undergo the mood shift there is nowhere to take it. They vanish. They look for someone else. They ask their question... but it's not an honest question. They are just asking for confirmation. To be blunt, they want someone to jerk them off. Oh yeah baby you are so smart you don't need no stinkin papers oh yeah baby you got real treasure baby yeah baby don't send it to Japan wait let me give you $100k for this sploosh. I regret writing that. But it needs to be said because this is what this crap is. So please. Understand that this crap line of "you know what you got / you don't need papers" went out there to suckers and those suckers talked to other people who believed it. And those people went and posted it online and in messageboards and on mailing lists. And other people read that and transmitted it by word of mouth. Russian propaganda says if you want something to be true, REPEAT IT. Repeat it enough and IT BECOMES TRUE. It obtains the perception of truth by constant repetition. Sooner or later, people do the repeating for you. So, please wise up. You do need papers. If you read books, you need papers. If you think someone knows more than you, you need papers. The only guy I know who doesn't need papers is Tanobe sensei, because he writes them. But even he will defer to Honami Kotoku and Honami Koshu. And other experts do exist who don't need papers, none of whom are posting here, but they will defer to Tanobe sensei. Maybe some won't and hold themselves higher. But the point is that it is a very small crowd. If you are not writing papers, then you need papers. Because if your expertise is not high enough that you can write judgments that everyone will accept, then you need to be listening to judges who know more than you. You are in this group, or you are not. I am not in that group, and none of you are either. So let it go. It is a macho thing, to not need papers, to "know what you have" but these are all guys who never saw a great blade except through glass. How can they know what they have? They are perfectly comfortable challenging judges who judge in one month more good blades than that guy will see in his life. What is the basis for this degree of macho arrogance? Gullibility. /puts on Morpheus hat If something wants to be a Norishige, it needs to prove itself. The NBTHK has judged Norishige many times and has got some kicking around they can refer to. Why would they get all those right and then mess this up? Why just this one? You think this is easy, to get this paper flipped? If it was easy, do you think that a smart guy like Bob wouldn't already have done it? All of you who want to believe can probably offer him $10k right now and get yourself a nice cheap Norishige. If you don't need papers, if you want to "buy the blade" and you have that much faith in your opinion that you want to take it over the NBTHK, this is your time to shine my friend. You can get one for an 80% discount. Smells like a sweet bargain to me. Who's going to do it? Bob flat out described what happened to this blade and was 100% honest and offered his opinion that it is worth another shot. Maybe in 10 years. But for now, it is what it is and he said exactly how that happened. I mean the whole story is sitting there literally spitting in everyone's face. He's not hiding anything. But somehow, people dream the dream. If you send this back in they will all take your money and chuckle and make the same attribution. These are not idiots. I don't know why people think they will act like idiots. Send it to the NTHK if you want another opinion. Do that then decide what you want to do with this blade but there is no way you should rocket this right back to Japan unless you like setting money on fire. Maybe the NTHK will tell you what you want to hear. Probably they won't. Now you will have two sets of judges that are no good. EVERYONE says the same damn thing. The judges are clueless (when they get an attribution they don't like). When the get a nice attribution, those judges suddenly get a lot smarter. Now, you DO need to know what you have and you DO need to study and you DO that by studying the best blades. Ultimately you are free to spend your money however it makes you happy. Using a paper for support though is just being smart. It's underwriting your investment with the best expert opinions. I do have a clear stone I would like to sell otherwise, trust me it's diamond, after all you have a good eye, you don't need a paper to tell you what to think do you? I also have a mint condition Honus Wagner card, totally not run off of a laser printer from a photoshop file I found on the internet, and you are so smart that you don't need someone else to tell you what you know in your heart to be true. I will sell it for only $5,000 and trust me, use your eyes and use your heart, I am completely not appealing to your sense of greed and desire to obtain something without paying for it and your sense of vanity for being a special person to have this opportunity come your way... it's none of that trust me just today is your lucky day. After you buy that, I have some gold coins fresh from the mint, I bought them on volume discount so I can sell them to you at 20% of the market price of gold, because sir, I like the cut of your jib. In fact, if you buy 100 from me I will give you an additional 5% discount. You don't need to test them or have a assay done, that's just another form of paper and you can put this in your hand and you will know what you have is real. Who needs papers. I don't, I know what I have. You don't, you know what you have. Now, let's do some business, shall we?
  12. Darcy

    Seller At San Fran

    Send me your email address Tom and I will forward it to Al if you are not yet in touch.
  13. Darcy

    Tsuba Opinions

    gun maybe loaded?
  14. Darcy

    Tsuba Opinions

    Just one more thought... Treat every gun as if it is loaded. This sums it up better than my wall of text.
  15. Darcy

    Tsuba Opinions

    A little late coming back to this but this: I think that is fundamentally incorrect, and what's more, a damaging point of view to take. First, I am talking within the context of this thread on NMB where I am asking for help, not giving help. I am reacting to a thought about "you have a keeper tsuba" and my response is that I can't pull the tsuba and box it because it SEEMS to be original gear. I didn't say it is. The word "seems" I don't think requires footnotes and dictionary references for novices to understand and furthermore if we cannot rely on simple words to have meaning then we can't communicate. I can tell you, having a math degree, that 2+2 = 4 is not a given though it seems to be self evident but requires a complex proof. However on a casual basis we accept that it is not going to be required to run through that proof every time you want to use basic arithmetic. Anyway to as to why your viewpoint is wrong and furthermore, hazardous, if I were to adopt the default point of view that everything is slapped together unless otherwise proven then this would allow me and you and everyone else to tinker with sets on a carefree basis. The end point of that is a definite assurance that nothing is original anymore. In this collecting field, everything devolves to an opinion. Right now we're discussing in another thread the merits of a signed piece and there is no open and shut conclusion that can be made even on that. But we don't just run off and wipe the mei. What you do with your money when you spend it is one form of a conservative viewpoint (i.e. treat it skeptically when buying), but what you do with artifacts handed to you is another form of conservative viewpoint (conserve it when owning). And my viewpoint on this set was simply that I am not going to disassemble it because it seems to me to be original and that was the beginning and end of the thought. No conclusion and not slapping anyone on the head with it and not trying to mislead novices, but simply an explanation for why I won't disassemble a set. That, as I point out above, is simply an incorrect viewpoint. If you take an aggressive action all you do is guarantee the worst case result. What you're saying is similar to telling someone to just wipe signatures off willy nilly because we can't ever know for sure that the smith put them on. And we can't. In the case where the NBTHK says to mei ga aru they are placing a signature into a "needs more study" category. If we adopt this approach you are suggesting that if you cannot prove that signature was made by the smith then you should feel free to do with it what you wish, then it gets wiped. More of these things get wiped than should be when everyone decides that they have a free hand because nobody can prove it is legitimate. You can ONLY prove a signature is ILLEGITIMATE, and you can't prove ALL illegitimate signatures are illegitimate and you cannot prove a signature to be legitimate. You can only say it most likely is, or is not. When archaeologists and historians encounter this stuff, they preserve it. If there is any doubt, they preserve it. They don't jump in and start altering Roman artifacts because someone in the Renaissance might have altered it before them. They might try to restore it but that is not even likely. Our hobby is far more aggressive than any other for restoration. Anyway, any one-way irreversibly destructive actions only guarantee destruction of all potential candidates when taken over the long haul. Some in the grey area might have been OK, some may not have been. But if you tinker with them all by default, you wipe them all out. Those that were OK and those that were not OK. I will go over it again: 1. I didn't claim it was certainly original as you are taking from it 2. My intent here is not describing an item for novices, experts, for sale or education, my intent is only explaining on a casual basis why I won't disassemble a koshirae because the tsuba is nice And I will also repeat, that I think it is irreverent and irresponsible to advocate disassembly of koshirae because it can't be proven what the history is. Please tell me how many koshirae you think are out there that we can prove exist as a whole, intended as this whole, in their completely original state, beyond a shadow of a doubt? Almost none and those that do exist are a handful of items from the mid to late 1800s where every piece is signed, and even then we cannot prove it because we will alter these things in order to examine the underside of the menuki. By altering them they are now no longer in completely original condition. So this ... what you propose, a free for all on all koshirae to rip them, this is just destructive advice. It's what I see happening to my shock and horror in Japan, not on items of this level but on a very high level items. They shrug and say it doesn't matter. But every time it happens it guarantees there is one less potential in the world. If you want to do it, nobody can stop you, but you can't sit there and tell me it's good advice and offer that to other people as good advice and not get any pushback because it is some of the worst advice I've ever heard and applying that same thinking to all domains with the sword, you get a huge mess. See that horimono? You cannot guarantee that the smith made it. So, if you don't like it, just alter it. After all, the damage (maybe) is already done. That signature, doesn't matter if some experts accept it or others don't, nobody can prove who put that signature on. You don't like it, just wipe it, it's ok because we don't know for a fact who signed it. The rust on the nakago? Maybe a polisher added some patina, so don't worry about it. Clean it up and make the nakago nice and shiny and get the rust off. Polish? Well we know for a fact that that isn't original so feel free to alter it to your heart's content. Each choice to alter something instead of preserve it may, or may not, change something that was original. If we don't know it's a reason to do nothing not a reason to do something. Default pose is sitting on your hands. Not tinkering. We don't tinker with artifacts because someone doesn't have a signed, notarized document telling us not to. We don't tinker by default unless someone gives us a signed, notarized document saying it's OK to do it. And if I found your grandfather's axe and it was 300 years old and it was a collectible antique I would tell someone, don't remove that old handle because it might be original. You would tell them knock yourself out, nobody knows anything about this old thing. Maybe in fact you will encourage them to remove it for a nice new one if you are a vendor of axe handles. But otherwise, it makes very little sense to me to authorize and encourage tinkering with artifacts because they might not be in original state. The key word here is might. I really don't understand why you would not be coming from the same position, a default position, of preservation since this is something that is advocated on this site. We tell people not to polish their own blades, they might ruin something that might be good. If the tsuba might be good and the patina is bad, we say send it to Ford, don't fix the patina yourself because you might ruin something that might be good. You are one of these people that is in the loop to actually fix this stuff you are saying above is ok to do. We don't want tinkering. We don't want people ruining things. We don't want people taking actions that conclude with "well before, we didn't know if it was messed up, but now we do know for sure it's messed up." After all that iron tsuba, we have no way of knowing if someone of your skill level made it and injected it into the market. It's been shown on this website that this can be done. So, that means any moderate quality iron tsuba cannot prove itself. As such, knock yourself out and do what you want with it because you can't prove it's not a modern craftsman's work? Logically, it is just not congruent with preservation to say "everything is allowed unless it is explicitly not". This is not conservative, it doesn't preserve like "nothing is allowed, unless it explicitly is." The latter is how historians and archaeologists and museums and most other collectors of things behave. Conserve first, tinker second (if ever).
  16. Good that people are noticing that. Heartbreaking that this kind of thing gets wiped out. Happens on koto blades too! Someone in later periods figures it's disfiguring the work and removes it.
  17. Also just noticed in the side by side I put of the target blade and one of the papered Sukehiro that the yasurime are steeper on the papered one. I don't know if he varied them over time though.
  18. Just when comparing, remember to compare style to style as the various changes come over time. If you use a late mei to compare against an early mei you don't get good results. I checked all the Juyo and that extra atari is in none of them where he retained block writing in the mei. (So with Tsuda and without Tsuda). There is one that looks like maybe a downstroke is added but not sure. So, that's 95 examples. No match to that unless you add in the grass script items which have large amounts of varieties. And those are not grass script. If those were good mei I would expect them to turn up at some point during the last 60 years. If they haven't, one has to ask if the examples are legit or if it's just luck. I looked at the Tokuju (which are all Juyo at some point) and the Jubi as well and nothing. As you get into the higher ranking blades the grass script mei prevail. ... Aoi's example has a KAMI that doesn't match anything in the Juyo or the four examples at the top or the ones Jacques posted. Just went through them all again looking at KAMI. So, weird. Tokubetsu Hozon papers have the meireki mei as an annotation.
  19. Sadaoki is real treasure. Nice to see.
  20. About his lack of guarantee on already papered blades: If something has papers it is a settled matter between the buyer, the seller and the item, and its papers. Everyone is agreeing to honor what is on the papers. As long as the papers themselves are not fraudulent, then basically you are kicking a hornet's nest if you're going to go around and expert shop for opinions. I overheard a French scuba dive instructor telling his students once, "Trouble is the only thing in the world that you are guaranteed to find if you go looking for it." This applies in matters of opinion. If you are a Christian and you go to the Mosque to ask about the nature of God or vice versa, don't run out screaming "everything I ever learned was a lie!" You have to know when you go in that your closely held beliefs might be doubted or actively questioned and you need to be ok with that. One sword I sold a long time ago had two old opinions from high level experts universally regarded for their expertise, plus it was Juyo, plus it had Tanobe sensei sayagaki, and my client went expert hunting, and found a mediocre western guy who nobody would listen to other than "well that is an interesting somewhat informed opinion" and took his opinion over those other four experts. He freaked out. He never bought another thing from me because in his mind, I was selling fakes. I'm sorry but no, your mediocre western guy with a drinking problem is not anyone you should take over the Honami + NBTHK Juyo + Tanobe sensei + one other high level guy. The problem here is knowing who is reliable, and who is not. Four top Japanese experts are not going to be trumped by one mediocre guy I can't even call an expert. Say, let's use me. If I am going to challenge one of the good Honami judges, don't listen to me. If I challenge Tanobe sensei, take Tanobe sensei's opinion and tell me my thoughts are intriguing and bear further study. If all of those are on the same side of the fence, and I am on the other, nod, smile and back away... slowly. If you shop for opinions, you will end up with a library of opinions. It's up to you to sort them out and discard the bad, keep the good, or try to find some kind of overlapping consensus between them. And if you are very fragile, or gullible, don't go shopping for opinions. So that is all about the "no guarantee if it's already papered and another expert craps on it" and why it's there. ... In terms of the various other no-returns this guy has, myself, the only no-return I have is if someone puts me into a long term payment plan. This guy is getting an interest free loan from me and sometimes it goes for one year. I am not going to have them take one year to pay, keep the sword off the market, pay their interest for them, then have them receive the sword, send photos to ${WESTERN_SWORD_DEALER_OF_CHOICE} who tells them "It has a flaw, it's obviously junk, return it and I will set you up with a REAL SWORD." If you want an inspection period and don't have the money, get a loan from someone else, buy it, inspect it, return it and return your loan. But if I am paying your interest for one year, sale is final or else we agreed to a back-out clause in advance that satisfies your need to return it and my damage in locking something up for one year. But otherwise, this guy is understandably trying to protect himself from: 1. buyer's remorse 2. westerners going to amateurs, idiots, drunks or competitors to get opinions and then return a perfectly good item 3. standard honest disagreement among experts freaking the buyer out out 4. mickey mouse cheap purchases that he made $50 profit on becoming customs headaches, taxes, paperwork headaches, would rather that this buyer just never buy and doesn't care if he loses the buyer because it's not worth the trouble 5. return of swords that might not pass customs rules and get destroyed on return So they are not unreasonable things to ask if you are running a high volume / low price, and low-to-mid quality type of shop. You can't give white glove ass kissing "the customer is always right" type of service with that business model when experts constantly disagree and you have saboteurs, competitors and the uninformed all lurking out there to render their opinions on your merchandise. Even honestly given, as I say, those opinions can disturb your customer if your customer is not mentally prepared or adequately understands what opinions are. The last point is about fraud. Fraud is not someone sold something and then someone else said it's fake so he has to go to jail. Fraud is about someone's intent to deceive you. If the dealer say, is someone with a close relationship to a sword organization, and normally papers all of their things, and then there is this one thing with "papers" from an "expert" that nobody ever believes, and this one sword has a signature that looks pretty bad, no modern papers, just these old "papers" from this "expert" and then this dealer paints this "expert" as being highly regarded and presents the whole thing in the air of authenticity but carefully dances around ever actually voicing his own opinion, then very likely this person has tried to paper the thing, it failed, and he's dumping his mistake on you. If you can prove that he KNEW it was no good and he sold it with this air of authenticity, now you have a fraud case. People who do this thing think that there is fine print that says "as long as I didn't say it's legit it's the buyer's problem" and no, that doesn't protect you. If you paint it in an air of authenticity, dodging and using cover, while you know it is not authentic, you are committing fraud. So in the case of these menuki I say to begin with: 1. just because the NTHK says they are cast doesn't mean they are cast 2. just because some of us say they are cast doesn't mean they are cast People write to me all the time and I say, "this is my opinion and I could be wrong." I mean, it should be frigging obvious that it's my opinion and I could be wrong. Same with the NTHK flunking these, you are not Moses going up the mountain and just got the truth recorded on some tablets. You solicited and got an opinion. You can send them to the NBTHK still. Now if they flunk them and everyone flunks them that you know, then maybe yes, they are cast. But still, everyone could be wrong. Not likely but it could be. Those are OPINIONS unless someone says "well, here is the sprue and there is the seam from the mold and here are photos of 10 others cranked out by the same mold." So don't go running in panic just yet. 3. If you bought something that was not papered and you had no assurance from the dealer that it would paper, you cannot be freaked out when it doesn't paper. You speculated. You lost. 4. If this guy is liquidating stuff that failed papers and pretending to not know, he did do something bad, but you have almost no way of knowing this or proving it. When you buy something unpapered, if you didn't get a guarantee, then the price should be a speculative price. The problem that western buyers make when they are buying cheap unpapered / green papered / lost papered / fake papered "but trust me it's authentic" good deals from Japan is that they think that it comes with all of the backing that you get from one that is legitimately papered. Plus they want the upside: I have people ask me to get a discount, plus get a Juyo guarantee. They will return the blade if it doesn't pass Juyo and they will keep it if it does. To that I say well, in that case I will submit it myself. I will get the price you're offering if it doesn't pass and if it does pass I will keep the upside for me. People don't understand that they can't both pass the risk to someone else (if it's bad, you eat it) and keep the upside for themselves (if it's good and I underpaid, I keep it). They ask me this all the time in various ways. And the additional thought to this is really, you know if you go and buy that green papered Kiyomaro for 2 million yen and pat yourself on the back and then recommend the dealer to other people as giving "good value" or you bought the green papered Shinkai for 1.5 million yen from the guy who said "I believe it is legitimate! It's great! Masterpiece! No returns / no guarantees!" then you kind of get what you deserve because you're being a fool. In the case of unpapered tosogu you are accepting a degree of risk. The price needs to reflect that risk. If you think there is no risk and you are just a smart shopper who got a good deal, then I have a bridge to sell you in New York. If you paid full price on something not adequately backed by experts on a no guarantee basis, I have some real estate to sell you in Florida. What is preventing buyers from being smarter is greed. The desire to get a bargain is greed. Because it's the idea of getting something for less than it's worth, and that being the central figure in the decision to buy or not, and this is a pervasive thought in our hobby. Your mom probably told you if it seems too good to be true it probably is. So don't stick your neck out if you don't want it chopped off. That's what I want people to see and understand, that when they go to the "good value" seller who has the no return policy, with no papers / green papers, they're taking on a lot of risk and they should understand the conditions under which they are buying. I think if they really understood the conditions, they would choose not to buy. The thing preventing this from happening is that they want to believe they got a sweet sweet deal. Reality is not kicking in. I shake people now and then and I know I seem like an asshole for doing it, but I want people to key on these no-guarantee sales with no-papers/green-papers and to see them for what they are. But I can't police the market and I can't protect everyone from their own greed and gullibility. I have guys bitching about high prices on things like my Rai Kuniyuki which is Tokuju and mint condition. They want to buy that topmost top edge bleeding thing for the price of something that is junk and they don't understand when I won't do it. Good things cost a lot of money to get. Junk is cheap. If someone is going to sell you something that seems great for a junk price you need to very carefully assess what you're doing. In this case, with mumei gold menuki, I would just say try again with the NBTHK before making any decisions. If they flunk it outright, melt them and bring them to the dentist next time you need fillings and wear it in your mouth as a reminder. I read that gold is still the best material for crowns. ... I took both sides here because there are two sides: the low cost vendor is trying to protect himself from his customers because he knows who his customers are. As well, he knows why his cost is low and why he can sell it low. Customs are not so aware of that, and customers if they wise up can make better decisions and understand the risks they take with these guys. I particularly get headaches when obviously bad things from such a vendor get posted to this website to grand applause as it furthers this idea that these are smart or risk free purchases instead of massive baited traps waiting to spring shut on someone's head. ... Now I will wrap it up with what I know. I posted here about some menuki the NBTHK gave me a "reserved" opinion on. I sent those to the NTHK and like your menuki, the NTHK said they were cast. I don't believe they are cast. I am setting them aside for now before I decide what to do with them next. So I am in the exact same boat as you. I might bring them back to the origin, I might not. If I am going to spend $100k with the source, I may then say "plus take these back" and make sure there is sugar with the vinegar. Or I may just eat it. I don't know. I know I took a risk when I bought them. Sometimes the NTHK will paper stuff the NBTHK will not. I know a high level sword the NBTHK flunked that the NTHK accepted with no problem. I know that the NBTHK will accept some stuff the NTHK won't: my menuki they didn't assess a final judgment. They may still accept them. If I do get NBTHK papers and I sell them, I will do it with full disclosure that the NTHK flunked them. It's not worth it to me at the end of the day to be subject to someone's ire and lose my reputation over a pair of menuki. In this case, the NTHK and NBTHK did not agree, and I obviously want my menuki to be legit so I want to hold out hope. If they both flunk it I will accept their judgment, even if I don't agree, I recognize that they both know more about it than me. So I can continue to disagree, the same way as some people will disagree that the earth is round or that people landed on the moon. Kind of.
  21. That thing can be removed. Whatever heat was required to solder it either did or didn't damage the blade. That ship sailed. The equivalent heat to remove it will not make a difference. Or a chisel. That said, the nakago is a pure horror show. The mihaba of the blade increases just before the "habaki" which is weird "at best" for a suriage sword. So I don't think it's suriage, or normal. I think it is not legit, or if legit, one of the cheap tsunagi type of manufactured things that end up in export koshirae. Without seeing it in hand, I really don't know, but I don't see anything in the photos that would lead me to a hopeful feeling. I also don't see any hamon, I see two colors of steel similar to reproduction blades that have reproduction hamon on them. Not sure what is causing the positive evaluations.
  22. Solid and welcomed. Should stop some head butting.
  23. BTW one other note, when you start, Japanese looks like Japanese. My Japanese is not perfect, I can read and write what I need to but I cannot go into in depth technical discussions in Japanese. At some point when you look at characters when you start you say this is the same as that. The more sophisticated you get then at a glance they don't look the same just because they are the same character anymore. You start seeing the handwriting. Same character that is in your handwriting and makes it yours. So keep looking and reading the mei and training. I know for me as well stuff I look at and think is the same, a real Japanese expert judge may see night and day difference.
  24. I posted that story a couple of times on the NMB. NMB actually identified the katana for me (Reinhard I believe). Search through my post history for Masamune.
  25. Build a museum. They are going to do one in Montreal. You could rotate through collections. One thing though with the museums pushback is that notability is a requirement and collectors don't want to hear their sword is not notable. The old guys too, they have squirrelled away some treasures but there is also suriage shinto Jo-saku stuff, a lot of waks, some of them did not care for them after accumulating them. They were rusty 20 years ago and they are rusty now. They got used to dumping mediocre things onto wide eyed newbies looking for guidance and used that money to upgrade. Then they looked around at the shows and... everyone is bald(er) fat(ter) grey(ing). Did the exact dumb thing, focused on the present, didn't think about the future. Accumulated HUGE PILES of mediocre stuff. That stuff spiked in volume and is coming down. In some cases nearly unsaleable. They are not going to want to deal with those realities now. Its that the prices were exaggerated when they were selling to the clueless and when they had money to spend with each other they paid exaggerated prices then the whole thing hit a wall a few years ago. They wanted to sell junk to buy mediocre, wanted to sell mediocre to buy good, but there was no food chain and they won't sell unless they get a profit. End result = economy comes to a grinding halt. People whine about no new collectors, but these guys are definitely coming. It's the same as Sears whining that the customers have gone. No, the customers are still there. They are just not going to fly to Sears for two days. They're online. They can learn and price compare and figure it out. Where the real howling is that they can't sell a mediocre thing to a fresh noob off the street for 10x the acquisition cost. New guys are learning faster lessons that took my generation a decade to learn. They are skipping over the problems then. Like in rural China when they roll out phone service they ain't gonna be doing it with telegraph poles and copper wires to everyone's house. It's going to be 2017 mode with the lessons of what people need: high speed mobile and home networks. Voice is of near zero importance now for a system that used to be voice only. So they bypass a whole generation of problems. And this is what buyers do now. There's a lot of buyers of great things that nobody knows about. They don't join NMB, too busy, they are in other countries than English-specific. Some of them read but don't post. Some will have 20 Juyo and 5 Tokuju in their collection and all of serious smiths, bound together with a theme. They are not going away. But they are also not going to buy anything mediocre. So yeah there will be a repricing event. It's already happened, just the other shoe has not dropped, when these guys get rid of all the Chu-jo stuff they accumulated and find out that the people who would buy it won't pay their price, and the people with money to buy it are completely disinterested. This is why I have been harping in private and public that mediocre is a danger zone. Enter at your own risk. By all means people, run out and buy up all those problem or mediocre blades that are being ejected onto the market as fast as possible. There is a reason they are being ejected out as fast as possible. Treasure sure is taking its time to come up. No race required there if you have one. A museum won't happen because it needs a madman who will make it his life to see it built, and involves money. Few people will extend money for such a thing. And a museum of mediocre items doesn't work. You need good items. Which means real security in a real building and insurance and ... you're running a business. If someone was smart they would get some property in Las Vegas and build it there. But really not going to happen without the madman.
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