Hokke

Im addressing you Brian and your specific statement and then I am out of this thread for good, I assure you. Since tone is impossible to write effectively, please know my post below is that of two people sitting at dinner having a discussion, not a vitriolic rant AT YOU. We can continue this via PM if you like, but I need this said openly. The words you convey, IMO, are very swiss, that is to say very political without much meaning and here is why I say it. Of course people are allowed to state their opinions, no one has EVER made an issue of this, so you are stating a fact not in contention. The question is as to how someone states their opinion, and more importantly, for what purpose. Most here state an opinion to be helpful and educate where possible. One member here states their opinion as unimpeachable fact, not in an effort to educated but rather to embarrass or demoralize. This is evident because there is ZERO need to label things as “crap”, "paperweights", "waste of every penny" and "money down the drain". It serves no purpose, except to humiliate. Now don't get me wrong, I am not a warm and fuzzy individual who believes everyone should get a trophy and that people must soften themselves not to cause the least bit of offense, but there IS a difference between being professional and being being a SCUMBAG. The question is what do YOU want this forum to represent. Because when you and the mods ALLOW this to take place, you are agreeing with it AND thus condoning it. So, if you want the reputation of this forum to be a place where people can visit and be humiliated for wasting every penny on an item, then please state that aloud here and now and I won't ever reference it again. In the second quote above you touched on this, politically, but again without any teeth. But you followed with "I draw the line at people getting personal". The only time I have seen this happen is when derogatory, unprofessional, selfish comments went unchecked. Seems to me if you eliminate the cause, the effect comes with it. Lastly, in the last line of the quote above, again, you said nice words, which carry little meaning. I say this because you have seemingly ignored one major component, INFLUENCE. When you have an amateur here posing as an "expert", telling someone they wasted every penny of their money, that can have a long standing effect and I promise you, the effect doesn't end in everyone "doing what they want". If the purpose of this forum is to have people visit and leave with a more educated stance on nihonto, that is one thing. If they leave here and ignore any future sword they see that is unpapered or unpolished, simply because they dont want to be ridiculed publicly if they post it, well, thats something entirely different, isn't it? I am not saying for a moment that we should be preoccupied with how people "feel", my previous sentence probably gives off that vibe, but it incorrect. IMO, this forum, with all its accumulated knowledge, should be a place for an academic approach to nihonto; how people "feel" when they leave here is simply a side effect of how this forum is broadcast to the world.

I am going to assume you were referencing my comment even though you didn’t quote them. I also find it curious you can apply your reasoning to some posts and not others, yes, it’s seems groups HAVE formed, that’s unfortunate. Your boy wrote ”Let me be clear that no matter what you paid for this sword it was a waste of every penny. If you value money and every minute it takes to make it then no matter what the price was, realise it was flushed down a drain and observe that feeling and ask yourself, knowing that it is not really a sword anymore would you really subject another collector, friend or enthusiast with this same feeling and tragedy? It's like conning someone.” First this highlights a lie told in a previous post. First, your boy told the owner of this blade if he only paid a couple hundred bucks, it was fine. Somehow that later transitioned to a “waste of every penny”. Telling people how to spend their money and assuming their financial values if far from focusing on nihonto, it’s financial advice. Compounding this by telling someone they “flushed money down the drain” and then going on to say if they sell this blade in the future they are participating in a CON is far from focusing on nihonto. Not only that, it lacks any professionalism and tact, which indicates low character. Its my understanding that this forum is looking to identify ways to increase gold membership. Telling people a purchase was a “waste of every penny” and “flushed it down the drain”…..is not the way to do it IMO. Interesting you seemed to have missed those points……

Brian, do have a way to generate numbers on those members who have ONLY posted in the translation or classified sections? I would be curious to know how many people have come exclusively for those sections without any intention of participating in the forum as a whole. Coming from a large watch community, your idea of minimum posts before being able to access certain parts of the forum, is a popular tool. As for gold member only sections or clubs, I dont know why you presume that would cause a riot. Sure people may miss things, hence, the member upgrade and for clubs, if youre not invited, thats just how to world works. Just remember there are always unintended side effects that are foreseen. With respect to the idea of "bumping" posts, thats also pretty standard on other forums, however, some forums get bogged down when there are no limits. How many times you can bump and how many items can be bumped makes a difference. I am not a fan of being able to pin a post to the top.

Your enthusiasm is noted, and I can appreciate it. That said, I stand by my post. Just because it hasn't been done yet, means little, IMO. Is it possible smiths of old used materials other than those we know of today that aided them in their work, absolutely. Is it possible that whatever those materials were, they are no longer available in the modern day, sure. Are either of these likely, I have no idea. What I do know, is that there is......something.......that is missing allowing for these works to remain un-copied, but it is.....something, either skill or material, or both.

Just a point of clarification, Chernobyl is more irradiated not because it was a ground explosion vs elevated, but because of the amount of fissionable materials that were released when the reactor exploded. Reactors hold thousands of pounds of fuel versus the hundred+ in the bombs. That in combination with the type of radiation released and its half life, compared to that of the bombs, is why Pripyat is still a danger zone vs Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Hi Brano, I wouldn't say never, these smiths weren't "magical" by any stretch of the imagination. 20 years ago, no one thought there would be a day when we would be making diamonds of significant size and yet here we are. Chemistry and technique are recipes, nothing more. Once you have the recipe for both, it's game over. However, your answer is interesting and I appreciate you airing it. I dont know if I agree with it, because I honesty haven't given it much thought, but perhaps we all should. Just for clarification though and so I won't be taking up space in Colins thread, I just want to make sure you saw my original post in full. The question wasn't if there was someone out there making blades traditionally to a high quality. The question was if there was someone out there making blades of similar quality and trying to pass them as nihonto. Some members posted info on blades made in Japan that attempted the fraud, but no one as yet has referenced anyone outside of Japan, not in this thread at least. And so, it seems my question is answered for the time being. Anyway, I think I have hijacked Colins thread enough, so I digress, I appreciate everyone's input.

Absolutely Colin, I wasnt trying to hijack your thread, I assure you. I only meant to expand on the term fake since you rightly mentioned it. Cheap mass produced fakes are covered very well here with many sources of information. I just wanted to step it up and discuss less common fakes and if they exist.

Hello Brano, if you have a look at my original post, I defined “fake” as “a purposeful attempt to misrepresent a blade not of Japanese origin as nihonto, or even shinsakuto.” The caveat is that the fake is so well made, it was challenging to detect.

Thats interesting, I will have a look for the thread. That said, you indicated that these were made in Japan. Are you aware of any being produced outside of Japan to the same degree of detail?

In accordance with No. 3 on Colin’s list, has anyone ever encountered a “fake” that was so well done it had to be reviewed by peers to confirm. Lets assume fake to mean a purposeful attempt to misrepresent a blade not of Japanese origin as nihonto, or even shinsakuto. Im aware this is difficult to accomplish with nihonto since artificial aging is a trick not yet mastered, but that doesn't mean some haven't come close. Im curious because in the watch world this has become somewhat ordinary. It used to be that fakes could be spotted from a distance. Then, they needed only be held. As time passed, it required magnification on the outside. Now, we have super clones that are so well made, they must be opened and the smallest of differences must be identified. Ironically, we have replicas that actually perform better than the original in time keeping. So is anyone aware of such an effort?

Good to know, ill have to take a look

Reminds me of egyptian hieroglyphs. Specifically Akhenaton, father of Tutankhamun. His name was either completely removed, in an attempt to erase him from history or it was defaced to show contempt for his ideas and policies.

Very cool, had no idea they even made such things, but I definitely want one now.

With all due respect Bobby, you are correct until you actually encounter someone from either camp. I have not a seen a single occurrence of someone here "sneering at Juyo as toys for rich collectors". However, there are bold occurrences of "dismisses the lesser". This is done quite openly and proudly. At that point, all bets are off and its no longer BS. Yes, yes, we "should celebrate" nihonto and "not fight", and for the most part I think this is the case. All the more reason to call out a liar in truths clothing. Cancer has to be identified, before being treated.

I dont have a FB account, so im not familiar with the sections, but im surprised there is that much of a nihonto following. Didnt know that platform had turned into such a sales site.

Good question, perhaps it was a simple matter of volume. Or maybe because someone told him kanbun shinto, suriage blades with shallow sori were "paperweights".

damn....that was a deal....congrats to Rawa safe flying Hamfish

Um no, TFB, you made the statement, I simply pointed out your poor memory for having forgotten it. The only thing deep. deep down is your contempt for anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. Describing nihonto purchases others have made or may make as "paperweights" is quite LITERALLY both looking down at someone AND something at the same time. Not to mention you accused a member of this forum for essentially being a thief. But you know all this TFB, and you arent the least bit bothered by it, which makes you a "special" kind of.........person.

Way to go TFB, what a short memory you have “Especially the people here like @Hokke @Matsunoki @jdawg221 @jawob i think between you guys if you can take all the paperweights off the market and souley focus on those, we'd all have a clearer view of what's really out there.”

Colin may have different reasoning but I understood it as: Many of these dealers have brick and mortar shops. Items are available for sale there first and if they do not sell, they are then posted online for the world to view. In some cases, dealers will post items for sale online in the native language section and then after a period of time will have them available in the translated sections.

Its an assumption that anyone purchasing a nihonto, is doing so based on specific blade qualities. As mentioned numerous times previously, there are those who purchase nihonto for other reasons, which include appearance, historic significance and authenticity, not to mention, price point. If you disagree then you are saying there are “rules” to owning nihonto, which is ridiculous.

I agree Colin, like you, I want this thread to remain open, so I will be as diplomatic as humanly possible.

How about we steer clear of assumptions in this thread and focus on general guidelines, which is exactly what has been done.

Great points Colin, exactly what newcomers should see to start them on their journey. IMO, this thread should be pinned to the top of the page.

I read your response very clearly, however, unless you have been granted the authority to answer for another member, I wasnt asking YOU anything. Maybe it wasn’t obvious. It looks like the author is addressing questions as I write this. So lets see if HE would like to respond or not. Either way makes no difference to me.