george trotter

With respect Reinhard, it is unreasonable to expect members to have to guess what you stand for. Perhaps you could stop telling us what you are not...and start telling us what you are...? Just a suggestion. George.

Thanks for that John...a very interesting article. I suppose then we shouldn't read too much into the placement of menuki as indicators of "handedness"...except perhaps in the case of gunto koshirae, where it seems that, gunto being carefully regulated, the "left" or "right" handedness of otherwise identical mountings must mean a personal preference by the officer commissioning the mounting. The article doesn't specifically mention "themed" orientation of menuki, but an example I once saw (beautiful quality), was that of a menuki on a buke-zukure tsuka which was (ura) a little fox in soft metals. He was wearing a "grass" raincoat and hat and standing on a log raft which he was poling up a river with a long pole . You could see that he was leaning forward intently, looking at something in the distance (towards the kashira). On the other (omote) side was exactly the same figure, also on a raft with a pole, but this time he was a rabbit, looking back fearfully over his shoulder behind him ,obviously being chased by the fox. A very charming set. The theme flowed from fuchi, around the end of the kashira and back down the other side towards the fuchi (and towards the tip of the blade). I think the other fittings were themed with river bank grasses (can't really remember). Thanks again, George.

Thanks for that information Keith...I think you may be right, I can't swear to having noticed more than two or three "lefties" in traditional mounts while I have however seen a reasonable number in gunto mounts...the reason possibly being that an officer could choose whatever suited him best in combat (perhaps pistol in the right hand?)...just not certain if any "rule" can be determined in this. I certainly agree that being a leftie in the samurai period would possibly be a disadvantage in a duel...while in WWII it is highly unlikely that a Japanese officer would ever meet an opponent in a sword vs sword duel...so not a critical matter...more likely to be slashing in battle...right or left mounting optional. Thanks, George.

Hi all, The "left or right hand" placement of menuki was touched on in an unrelated thread some weeks ago, but very briefly. I was wondering what the members have noticed about this over the years? Assuming the point that the menuki fits into the "cup" or hollow of the hand, I have noticed the placement of menuki to suit both left or right hand users, as well as "either-handed" placement. I ask if there is an strict protocol or if anyone can suit himself depending on his needs? Even with WWII gunto koshirae, which are fairly strictly regulated by military authority, there seem to be a fair number of what would be termed "left handed" tsukas. Type 3 tsukas also seem to have a fair number of occasions when the menuki are mounted directly opposite each other (ambi-dexterous mounting?). I would be interested in the board's experience of this matter. Regards, George.

Thanks Dave, I will drop him a line and ask about this. George.

Heh, heh...slouch hats...good one...influenced by the French Musketeers? I echo Toryu san in saying that although this discussion has been a bit "vigorous" at times, it has stayed focussed on the difference in arguments, not on the men making them...which is as it should be. Maybe Brian has finally trained us? George.

With respect... Probably the reason most of us haven't bothered to post pics to support "our" position is that we were questioning your position, which you stated was basically that departures from the Japanese aesthetic was a result of western influence, western aesthetic was all bad, and that tsuba with western influence are automatically hama-mono...we are still waiting for you to provide the discussion with proof of what you said. In regard to your position...I don't see that these latest tsuba are obviously western influence and thus unquestionably hama-mono. There is a way of testing your above opinion on foreigh influence: I remember lots of photographs from 1860-1890 where Japanese men wearing traditional clothes, kimono, geta etc, are wearing western straw hats and felt hats. If we follow your logic about westerners demanding "bad" un-Japanese art...these Japanese men should have been demanding "bad" un-western hats..say straw hats made of hard lacquer or soft felt hats shaped like jingasa, or hats that the Japanese men of that time would "imagine" western hats to be....but there is "proof that they did not do this...it is that there are no photographs showing them....only "aesthetically pure western hats". Maybe like westerners who loved Japanese things, these Japenese who loved western things just bought them...as they are...some good quality, some bad quality. Just an idea...surely you can find some pics to support you thesis? George. (I'd look good in a soft floppy jimgasa!) :-)

Reinhard, These sayings of yours are surely just opinion, not fact? Where is your proof that these depictions are "Western"? Also, where is the evidence that "if" these depictions are "Western", the westerners demanded that the depictions be grotesque distortions of the Japanese aesthetic? Wouldn't logic dictate that if westerners fell in love with Japanese art they would want to collect Japanese art, not insist that it be altered to become grotesque non-Japanese art? Isn't it equally possible that a logical explanation is that the distortion and grotesque over-emphasis that appears on some Meiji era art is due to the distorted and grotesque interpretation of "Western" taste by Meiji era tsubako...who produced these works hoping to attract western buyers. That is, the distortion and grotesque appearance of the art may have come from the Japanese themselves?...those with an unclear understanding of western taste who wanted to please the westerners. It would be helpful that instead of comparing illustrations of the finest of "Japanese aesthetic" tsubas you can find with the worst examples of "Western" tsubas you can find, you compare also some worst examples of "Japanese aesthetic' tsubas with some of the best examples of "Western aesthetic" tsubas? Just a suggestion. Otherwise it is hard to judge your argument because of the inbuilt bias of your presentation...what do you think? Hope this helps the discussion, George.

Some have said this thread became mired...I myself said it was becoming "waffle...and it was, but ultimately it has been a valuable discussion. In the other Hama-mono thread on Tim's Hisanori galloping horse Dai tsuba, Reinhard said of it "Western expectations...combined with Japanese skills and craftsmanship automatically lead to Hama-mono: things made for export during the Meiji-period". In the beginning of this thread, he said "attached are some [tsuba] examples obviously made for export" followed by What do we think?This caused a lot of discussion of varying degrees of insight/opinion. Once Reinhard explained his position regarding the above statements, it became clear why he held that view. It did not lead to a general agreement with his view. It has become clear that there is much dissent; that "Western expectations" do not necessarily "automatically lead to Hama-mono" or that Hama-mono are "obviously made for export" , nor is western influence necessarily "pompous, pretentious, Disneyland, MacDonalds and abandoned old hookers", it is merely western influence. There is obviously more study here for someone; all those specifically commissioned Meiji era collections that were mentioned in Europe and UK, USA etc. It has emerged as a topic that has apparently barely been investigated. I think we are a bit more focussed and informed on the subject thanks to this discussion. George.

Reinhard, a very well stated and informative conclusion. I can certainly see now the point you were making about Meiji era metalwork and the aesthetics which lead you to conclude "western influence" = "Hama-mono". May I add, in defense of we poor westerners however, that there is evidence that the Japanese aesthetic and "artistic spirit" was in somewhat of a decline by the early Meiji or earlier. This can be seen in the Goto and Ishiguro...(in my opinion) they are technical perfection in the making and the placing of design, but are "lifeless". The increasing irrelevance of swords led to the slow decline of the master schools and even truly competent tsubako, so by Meiji, there were relatively few still working. The new and growing interest in this field by westerners, and the desire to fill that interest by metalworkers seeking a relevance and a living, led to the supply of what has become called "hama-mono". I think this is the situation that appeared...supply filled demand, but the demand was not necessarily for low quality, ugly "un-Japanese work. I feel it is not entirely correct to say that westerners have an inate poor taste, or that westerners' tastes are responsible for the poor quality and ugliness of the Hama-mono....some must have been purchased by Japanese also. In the example given by Ted, the silver teapot...I have seen them with dragons etc, but I have also seen one which was a plain, unadorned "melon", just a tendril of leaf as the focus...true shibui. I have also seen garrish bronzes of high quality, all eagles and dragons...terrible taste...but I have also seen a bronze vase, made as a section of large bamboo, with a small bud and leaf (and a tiny snail) as the focus...again, true shibui. These were all Meiji Hama-mono....but to whose taste? I'd like to think that there are some westerners with taste, just as I'm sure there are some Japanese without it. Hope this adds to the discussion, George.

No offence intended to anyone but does anyone else think this discussion is turning into "waffle"? I think the crux of the "Hamamoo" discussion is still that in a specific instance Reinhard said that a tsuba of a horse by Hisanori was full of western influence and was thus unquestionably Hamamono...he followed this up by stating that a second tsuba of hoofprints, also by Hisanori, "illustrated" his point. In this post he has said that the items in the above pics are "obviously made for export". I would like to hear his discussion in support of these statements (or at least be told the sources he is quoting from). I think, with respect, that we should hear from Reinhard on his claims, and then perhaps we will have a base to build a proper discussion. Regards, George.

Well said Keith... even if the poster defines and identifies and proves instances of "western influence" in these tsubas, he still could not prove that they were "obviously made for export"...unless, under the rules of proof/evidence, an original source, such as an original document from say "Echizenya", the great Edo/Meiji era merchant can be found. This document, must be a commission for these specific Tsubako to make these actual tsubas , requesting that they be finished by a specific date so they could be included on a ship from Yokohama to San Francisco for sale there...this would be "Proof". Even with this proof, it would still only be one viewers opinion that these tsubas, because of their western influence, are reminiscent of tired old "Hookers". I think that without clearly defined argument and supporting evidence or "proof" of what the poster means and intends, posting a few pics and asking what members think will end up as "waffle". So, to avoid that, can the poster provide the basis for his argument and we can proceed from there. George

Reinhard, with respect, isn't it incumbent on you to state your case in favour of these items being "obviously made for export" and then ask for comment? George.

Mario, My old eyes can't see a W stamp on your sword, but I have seen them on the few Takehisa blades I have handled, so presume yours are hidden by rust or my eyes are bad, The stamp on the nakago mune, which you show twice, is "To", and is the same stamp seen on the blades and metalwork of many nco swords and bayonets...I think it may be an arsenal stamp and I'm sure it is listed in various publications...I am not sure what it means when found on a Takehisa blade...mounted in the Tokyo arsenal? Don't really know, sorry. George.

Hi Brian, I get what you say about wooden liner strips...in my experience these appear in western sabre scabbards, but in the few gunto saya liners I have pulled out (about 3), they were all completely enclosing the blade, including ha and mune. In section they were like "69" ...that is, the sides had a "right angle" hook on them, one held the ha and the other held the mune. they are quite beyond the usual western handyman to replicate. Thanks also for the panelbeater tips...worth looking into. Regards, George.

Reinhard, How does this "sho" illustrate your point? (do you mean prove your point?). Reading back to your posts your "point" (opinion) was that the westernised aesthetics of the "dai" leads unquestionably to the conclusion that the tsuba was hamamono of the Meiji era. Would it be fair to say, following on from your words, that as the European art form of "Art Nouveau" was unquestionably influenced by Japanese ukiyoe prints, that all Art Nouveau pieces made in Paris and London during the Meiji era were unquestionably made as "export mono" to Japan? Regards, George.

Thanks for that Greg, I know from experience that none of this is a simple task...especially if the kink in the metal saya is deep or sharp...the hard part is getting the liner out past the kink...usually impossible without destroying the old liner. In the case where I did get the liner out I repaired it as I certainly do not have the skill to carve a new one...hence the question. I did experiment with kink/dent removal years ago...and you might be interested yourself. I slipped a .410 shotgun "dent removal" tool in...they are on a rod which turns and expands the end to "pop" the dent. The problem can be that even in its unexpanded state, the tool is too wide to get into a dent further down the saya. In this case I used a thickish hardwood dowel (hickory?) or flat sided batten whittled with a long 4 inch tapered wedge end...this could be tapped into the kink/dent and it gently opened the dent as it went deeper in...being wood, it was possible to still get it jammed/broken...but a metal rod similarly shaped might be safer/quicker. This inside expansion method does not require outside tapping or "panelbeating" with hammer and inside dollie, but tends to leave an "imperfectly" popped dent, ie, still visible but not obstructing sword, and may still flake off small paint flakes. I am thinking it might require too much time/risk of loss/cost to send off a sword & saya overseas, just to get a liner fitted...maybe as sayashi time-cost would be similar, it would wiser to get a shirasaya made and a tsunagi...what do you think? Thanks for your input. George.

On another post recently an NMB member recommended that a collector get a new saya liner made for his gunto mounted sword...I have two good gendaito blades that would benefit from new liners in their gunto metal sayas...one saya also has a kink/dent which causes a tight spot against the side of the blade (about at the monouchi area). Is it possible to have a saya straightened and a new liner made? Where/who/cost? I would be interested to know if this can be done, Regards, George.

Pssst...Mr Majortiger of Sydney...the boss is getting cranky about people not signing their posts. Unless you want to risk the chop, please give your name. Thanks, George.

dang...my spelling stinks...sorry Tim (not Tin) and I meant rule, not dule...baka desu! George.

This thread reveals more and more... First John Stuart mentioned tagane-mei were struck on "art-piece' or "export" tsubas never intended for mounting and then John L mentioned that seki-gane were also inserted...now we have Jean's "made as art" piece demonstrating clear evidence (seppa kage?) of having been mounted on a sword for some considerable time...that is the the only real dule with Japanese swords...no rule is absolute. Now...if only an NMB member can find another identified Hisanori piece to help us place Tin's Hisanori... Gotta love the horses... George.

I notice the nakago ana of the sho-tsuba has been punched...it seems to indicate that this tsuba was once mounted on a sword... this wouldindicate it is not just an "export piece'...or were export pieces given dummy punch marks? Just wondering out loud... George.

Hi Tim, What a charming pair of tsubas...and what a wonderful artistic "conceit" (that's an art critic word for "concept" :-)). Galloping horse on one and hoofprints, dust and leaves on the other...fantastic. I wish I had them...no wonder you truged through sleet and snow to get them...fabulous! Was there a box with this one to...? Regards and envy, George.

Just on the point of "proof" (not to throw petrol on a fire), but I remember the rule of empirical proof at university...it was basically that if A states a thesis it must be accompanied by "proof". If B presents an antithesis, it must be accompanied by "proof". If A & B can accommodate valid aspects of each other's "proof" they have a harmonious synthesis...if no, they have revolution and war! I hate to harp on and on on this...but it would help (me anyway) if someone was able to translate the hakogaki. Maybe if Moriyama san could take a look we can find out if there is an important clue to the where/when/who of this tsuba. The where/when/who might assist this debate to a peaceful conclusion. Regards, George.

Jon, Nice sword...you are very fortunate. I looked through my Japanese language Nihonto books and Shibata Ka is certainly held in very high esteem by the Japanese scholars. Strangely though, although his use of the Mitsuoki mei seems known there among people in Nihonto circles (such as Aoi Arts) I could find no mention of his use of it in any ofmy Japanese sources...we'll have to wait for one of the knowledgeable here to comment...or...you could email Aoi Arts with your oshigata and ask them...they might help. Regards, George.