george trotter

Hi all, close on two days have passed and I have been off-line. Terrible storms, hail, lightning etc here...internet down...$100 mil in damage in city/suburbs....but, I have been translating the passage on "Zoheito" (Arsenal Swords) with Star Stamps by Ohmura that Jacques posted as a link on this thread...very interesting results which I am still checking. I have also just PM'd Chris Bowen about it and when I get a reply (which hopefully will assist my findings), I will post it as a new discussion thread about Star-Stamp swords. Regards from a victim of the taiphun... George.

Thanks David, so...still no confirmation that star stamp blades were papered. I think I'll have to have a go at translating those passages in Ohmura myself...only trouble is I often don't understand exactly the meaning of some sentences...still, if I uncover any secrets on star stamps I'll post it. Thanks again, George.

Thanks Paul...yes I agree, foreign iron was probably a fashion thing...perhaps only a truly experienced appraiser can tell whether there was any namban tetsu in a blade, even when marked as such...and I'm speaking as someone who owned a Sandai Echizen Yasutsugu blade. I was really only joshing about this Mantetsu-Nambantetsu thing...of course there is no comparison. About the Tan stamp etc...a lot of the information appears to come from the west as we have so many gunto/gendaito blades of 1926-45 period, and most knowledge comes from our observations...that is why I think it would be good to have some deeper Japanese research...Yoshihara and Kapp say only that as so many types of sword were produced it is difficult in many cases to determine what some of these stamps actually mean (p.67). i also once quoted them about not being able to tell a tamahagane use blade and a western steel blade as long as both had hada and nie etc. On the star stamp, i don't think we can go much farther discussing the the meaning of it until someone confirms or dismisses that these swords have received papers. regards, George

Hi Dave, Thanks for that comment. I suppose Tan stamps are "stamps" too and indicate non-traditional blades...it seems obvious that more reserch needs to be done. Can you say if any star stamp blades accepted for shinsa were papered as gendaito? It does always depend on the blade, but it is an "indication" that star-stamps blades might be more than just showato. Just back to Jacques comment on Mantetsuto being clearly marked as being made of Mantetsu and therefore not tamahagane made gendaito...I wonder what "namban tetsu" marked on a shinto balde would indicate...? Regards, George

Thanks John...I must say I haven't seen such short blades as 60 cm 2-2.1 shaku (that I remember), most are 2.3 shaku with a few over that. This standardised length is ideal for military use, but I remember reading that the regulations prevented the young upcoming swordsmiths (at Yasukuni etc) from really experimenting and expressing themselves...they had to wait until the post-war period. maybe this explains the immediate move to make swords 70 cm and more in modern times. Even for me (6 '2" or 188 cm) these seem big clumsy swords...not as practical as the gunto size...just an opinion. George.

Hi Jacques, yes I have that book. I also know that your earlier post from it includes the star stamp as an evidence to indicate a non-traditional blade...but I think, having had excellent star-stamp blades in hand, made by Jumei Tosho, (and look no different to unstamped blades by Tamahagane using Jumei Tosho) isn't it too simple to be so "positive" in the statement. This book acknowledges that the data is from US and UK sources...therefore, I would feel happier to know exactly what Ohmura's Japanese research has to say about it. It is just an interesting point that some blades by Jumei Tosho designated smiths have a star stamp, but seem in no way to be less perfect than true (unstamped) gendaito by these same makers. If we take on face value the statement that stamps always indicate showato...it must follow that unstamped blades are nihonto? It must include all Yasukunito, Minatogawato, Jumei Toshoto without exception? This means also of course Mantetsuto as they have no stamp? I think therefore, there may be exceptions like all aspects of Japanese swords...again it would be good to see if there is any new information in Ohmura. What do you think about this Jacques? I'm sure the discussion would be interested to hear your opinion. If you are involved in the shinsa world, can you (or anyone else) advise if star stamp blades have been papered...or definitely rejected and the reason? Regards, George.

Most of the blades I have seen were c.66cm long...a very few were c.69 cm. Are these the two sizes you mention John? Also, further to the star stamp swords...while a number of swords have been papered which are by makers known to have been Jumei Tosho/star stamp smiths...the lists I have seen don't specifically state that the examples papered were star stamped or of wartime date...does anyone have a lead as to whether star stamp swords have been papered. I would also be interested in a list of swords papered as true gendai which shows the kanji for the names...does anyone have a site/link to point me to? I suppose, since it is known that Jumei Tosho were issued Tamahagane and were strictly instructed to make traditional swords to army size/length/shape etc, that their swords must be true gendaito...they certainly look like it...they have hada, nie etc. and because of the Tamahagane use regulation, we know that they are made with tamahagane. If they don't have a stamp (as per the regulations that non-traditional blades must be stamped) it must mean these Jumei Tosho blades, Yasukuni gendaito, Minatogawa gendaito are just that, traditional nihonto of tamahagane. Two of my three Jumei Tosho swords are unstamped so comply with the above definition...they are definitely gendaito by their characteristics...a third blade is also by a designated Jumei Tosho, also definitely traditionally made, but is star-stamped ...so the meaning of the presence of the star is not totally clear. If it means they were inspected in an "arsenal", it means they passed the test for privately made swords...and also that the maker is a Jumei Tosho? as these stamps only appear on blades by Jumei Tosho I believe?....so, can anyone comment who knows about shinsa/papers/gendaito? or can translate more of the two Ohmura sites...regards, George.

I agree with most of the above...with extra thoughts. The focus is not on "star stamps" themselves but on the blade...I have never seen a "bad" star stamp blade. All those I have seen appear to be good quality gendaito...I thought they were the Rikugun Jumei Tosho blade, but it seems possibly not, although these designated smiths seem to have made both untsamped and stamped blades...I can't really tell the difference in quality...they both seem very good. Reading Ohmura's english translation seems to show that star stamp blades were made "for" the army by private smiths and stamped by inspectors...it is not clear (to me) if these guys worked "in" an "arsenal" or supplied the "arsenal" from their private forges where they were stamped. Ohmura says on the Japanese page that the Rikugun Jumei Tosho had to work to Army specifications regarding length, sori, hamon, tamahagane, kitae etc etc...but so did the Yasukuni tosho and others...it was the "army size" sword perfected after 10 years of war...and essentially the best size, shape, length for ground fighting, as their ancestors also found in koto times (uchigatana types). Of course we should always look at any blade quality to judge it...but this discussion is about clearing up the star/no-star question...Moriyama's help would be appreciated. Regards, George.

Bob, your blade is probably partially machine made and oil tempered I think (Seki stamp) and hand polished, and the guy told you right...the scabbard is covered with rayskin and polished (thats why you can see the white polished knobs), originally it was dyed black but it has faded to brown now. Your sword is a nice clean example of a WWII navy sword...look after it, it is not common to get one in such clean condition. This other discussion has arisen from the matter of stamp marks on swords...we can't seem to be sure about these things and their meanings ourselves, so don't be surprised that you, as a newbie, are wondering what we are talking about...your stamp is well known however, so what we've told you about yours is pretty well established. Regards (and sorry for going off on a tangent on your thread)... George.

It's interesting what you say...maybe you have exposed an unknown factor here. Ohmura does say that the star stamped blades are made/forged by private swordsmiths and are stamped in the "arsenal" with the star. I have understood from various writers that the star means a blade made by a "Rikugun Jumei Tosho" (an Army Commissioned Swordsmith), but maybe there are two different things? Ohmura seems to be saying here that these are definitely "forged" blades, as opposed to "Zoheito" which are essentially mass produced? (he is unsure how to classify them)...and in another section of his site http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm he says a lot about Army Commissioned Swordsmith rules (Rikugun Jumei Tosho) but I cannot see that he mentions a star stamp. My Japanese is not very good, but it does say that these smiths were to make the swords in the traditional wrapped way, with shingane and Tamahagane. He shows nakagos and meis examples of these swordsmiths including, on the left, Imai Sadaroku...none seem to have stars. I have had his work in hand (no star) and it is definitely gendaito work. Ohmura gives a list of smiths who were Jumei Tosho and one is Yamagami Munetoshi. I have one by him with no star and it is definitely gendaito...but a site "Montana...?" has one by him with a star and it is signed differentl Kanji for Toshi...can there be two different grades of swords made by Jumei Tosho? A "pure Tamahagane gendaito" (no star) and a what? (they appear to be true gendaito) with no star. Maybe Moriyama san could look at the Japanese part of the Ohmura site Jacques listed, and I listed here, and just tell us what the meaning of the star stamp and Jumei Tosho is? Regards, George.

So Jacques, what do you think Ohmura san is saying about forging of star stamp swords ? George.

Tom, just reading your original post, you already know he is Shinoki Masamichi...as a matter of interest what other information did the seller pass on to you? BTW, I notice I call him Shinoda instead of Shinoki a couple of times...please disregard...I mean Shinoki. George.

What a great site this is...and great members. So much knowledge. I am pleased that this is not just a boys club...glad to hear we have ladies too. George.

Ps...that last might be Wakakuni city. Geo.

Tom, I agree with Todd...a nice blade. just to answer your research question, the only things I can find is that a BIZEN KUNI MASAMICHI is listed as Hawley MAS 442 for 1934. There are two Masamichis listed in Japanese wartime compilations but no details are given...as follows: Shinoki Masamichi as a middle upper quality smith in Jinsoo Kim's WWII list Tosho Banzuke 1942 and a Morita Masamichi is listed in the Jinsoo Kim list of Rikugun Jumei Tosho smiths known from literature sources only. This Shinoki Masamichi is also listed in the 1942 publication Dai Nihon Shoko Meikan P.304-17 as living in Hiroshima ken which borders Okayama ken. I don't have a old map to compare but roughly, the old provinces of Bizen/Bitchu/ Bingo run along the coast and are now covered by Okayama/Hiroshima ken...at a guess, I would say that Shinoda Masamichi of Hiroshima ken is more likely to be your Bizen guy. If I understand the Japanese text properly, a group of swordsmiths in this region seem to have supplied work for a Masahiro (no other info on him), these smiths were Fujikawa Yasuyoshi of Hiroshima ken; Kobayashi Munemitsu of Okayama city; Saneda (something-taro) of Hiroshima city; Shinoda Masamichi of Hiroshima ken; Kajimura Akikuni & Kajimura Muneaki & Fujimura Kunitoshi, all of Iwakuni city, Honmachi, Kajiyamachi. If I find anything more, I will let you know. Regards, George.

That is great information Moriyama san. I wonder if she signed as Onna Kunishige...or maybe Otsuki Kunishige. It would be great to identify her work. George.

I too remember something of the kind...I wonder if anyone can find this reference...and confirm that the star stamp was put on by the Army... If so, then it may confirm that the Jumei Tosho, who were issued tamahagane like the Yasukunitosho and others, also produced their swords without stamps, and in the finished state these were star stamped are part of the Army system of accounting...not part of the seki/sho stamp regulation. Not to be provocative, but on the question of some star stamped swords failing shinsa (if this is true...and the reason is not using tamahagane), it makes one wonder how a shinto period Echizen or Musashi Yasutsugu, marked on the nakago as made with "namban tetsu" can get through? Just to correct my words above, the numbers and kana stamped on the sword in Slough p.117 actually match those on my star stamped Kunishiro. My Yamagami Munetoshi has no star stamp, although he was a Jumei Tosho...it does have numbers on the nakago however so was made to some accounting system also. One last thing ...Bob, I called you Tom...sorry. regards, George.

Hi Veli, Hawley is the only compilation I have seen that refers to a woman swordsmith....it would be a hard thing to explain in a male-dominated society...perhaps, like the English gun trade in the 18th-19th century, a wife assisted her husband, and as a widow continued on in the business (a number of cases appear in the gun and edged weapons trade)...they must have been a rare item in Japan as they get no mention elswhere that I know of. Back in the 70s-80s there was a female Nihonto collector in New Zealand, but I can't remember her name...I wonder if she is still around?...I wonder also if any woman is a member of this board? it would be a good thing I think. Regards, George.

I suppose this comes down to never say never. It is clearly understood from reports that Rikugun Jumei Tosho (star stamp smiths) were officially issued with tamahagane to make swords for the army. These were stamped with the star. The implication is that star = tamahagane/traditional gendaito. I have owned star stamp swords by Muto Hidehiro and Nagao Kunishiro and closely comparing them with Endo Mitsuoki, Okishiba Heianjo Yoshisada and Yamagami Munetoshi blades (no stamps but definitely gendaito), I could tell no difference...all had clear hada, nie or ko-nie workmanship... according to Japanese sources even the most experienced of appraisers/collectors couldn't tell the difference between tamahagane kitae and other steels in a finished blade, and in addition, if the blade nakago was "aged" and gimei added, couldn't tell the difference between gendaito and shinto...that's what led them to begin the stamp system. My understanding is that it referred to the "Sho" and "Seki" stamp only, as it referred to those makers contracted to the Interior Ministry, but other individuals and groups such as the Rikugun Jumei Tosho, the Yasukuni Tosho, the Minatogawa Jinja Tosho and Ritsumeikan Tosho? , set up with directorship by the Army and Navy, did not have to do so...otherwise, these too would have a stamp of some kind, which, as we know, only the Rikugun Tosho swords had a star. Whereas it is well known that the Seki Swordmakers Association put the Seki/Sho stamp on their products themselves, to comply with the law and as an indication of quality before they were delivered...there is circumstantial evidence that the "contract" numbers with kana, and thus, probably the star stamp, may have been put on by the Army itself upon receipt of the finished tamahagane made sword, ie, it is an Army accounting system thing ( I say this because in Slough p. 117 Munemitsu blade has identical numeral and kana stamps to my Munetoshi, a star stamp smith from another part of the country... I am sure more research needs to be done, but I have never seen a sunobe/oil-quenched blade with a star stamp or in a Yasukuni mei smith or Minatogawa mei smith. I was explaining in basic terms to Tom that the stamp on his sword indicated non-traditional...I did not mean to include Star stamp and other things in the statement...sorry. George.

Hi Bob, You have it right...but just on the point of the "Seki arsenal"...there was no such thing. In Seki (up behind Nagoya) there were many small swordmaking companies...some had maybe 80 employees and some only a few. They made the swords on contract to the government. Some smiths signed their own work and some companies had a Na kiri shi (name cutting person) who did the names. I think they had the peg hole put in when made. After 1940 all modern swords had to have a stamp on them...sometimes like the one you have and sometimes a cherry blossom. Many swords were delivered to centralised depots where they were polished and mounted for army or navy issue. If the peg hole didn't line up with the hilt, a new hole was made (like yours). Between 1939-1945 aroumd 300-400 makers were registered in the Seki town/region as making these contract swords...Your guy was one of these smiths...so there was not an "arsenal" as such. Some smiths were properly trained and could make "traditional" handmade swords as well as these Showato and Gunto. Regards, George. .

Hi Bob, as you are new to collecting Japanese Swords, you need to know the following. You have the little square "Seki" stamp on the tang which indicates that this is a WWII semi traditionally made/water or oil tempered blade commonly called Showato or Gunto (military sword). Kobayashi Kunimichi worked along with about 300-400 other sword makers in Seki from 26th Oct 1939 to the end of the war. Without seeing the blade details we can only assume this is a gunto (because of the stamp and what we know of this maker). As to the two holes...as Simon said, it usually means the sword has been re-hilted at some time and the new hole had to be drilled to accommodate the peg passing through a different spaced binding on the new handle. I would say however, that in the case of WWII blades which had a working life of perhaps 10 years at most, it is equally possible that the first hole was drilled when it was made...but, when it arrived at the "fitting/mounting" factory, it was found to be too "out of position" and a new hole was drilled for its mounting, before it was issued. It is found surprisingly often....it is most common on old traditional swords from re-mounting of course, but I would say rare on WWII vintage blades due to remounting...more likely from mis-placing of the first hole by the maker. Just an opinion. It is very rare to see a modern gunto with a plugged hole however...first I can remember seeing. Regards, George.

just had a look through the gendaito books...the loose blade is Moritaka...Ono 1971 Gendai Toko Taikan p.104/5 has him in Kumamoto and Slough p.117/8 has him...2 million yen...very good gendaitosho...this blade is pretty poor, but for a few dollars may be worth a risk for a local member to buy and polish. regards, George.

James, you are correct...at first, because these stamps overlap each other, I wasn't sure of what they were...it appears that one is a stamp used by Masafusa to indicate "Shinganeiri" and the other is a patent registration stamp (see page 65 and 98 in Slough). Slough calles this a kokuin, but it seems more like an industrial patent thingie. This Shoda Masafusa was a Rikugun Jumei Tosho who made gendaito, but he also made Showato it seems, as this one states on the tang, in kobuse style forging. This may be showato as it is nakirishimei...but possibly better than average in quality. Regards, George,

PS...mei on loose blade may be Moritaka...there was a modern smith named Miyake Moritaka and Hawley lists one in Kumamoto...whether they are the same man...or this man, I don't know. Geo.

Stephen, it says presented to Mr Mabuchi Ta ? ichi by the Yue? homefront association Regards, George. I don't see any sho/seki stamp, but it does have the large stamp under the mei...probably Showato.