george trotter

Yes, that is the likely answer come to think of it. The undated (slogan) one we can't know, but the dated one is Sept 1941...I don't know the exact date he became RJT but he won the president's prize in 1943, 1944, so it might be an earlier made blade I have. Incidentally it has the polisher's nagashi lines. The star stamped one is Feb '44 and although dirty, I notice it has the nagashi as well. While it is generally disparaged, the showato can give some surprises as well...I have one by Amaike Kanenaga (no sho or seki stamp) which has definite handworking,hada, ko-nie etc, and has the polishers nagashi lines under the habaki and on the kissaki mune...so...you never know with these things, you should always have a close look at whatever comes along. Regards, George.

Hi David, Thanks for that information...it is good to know that NTHK Yoshikawa has no prejudice against accepting star stamp gendaito for shinsa panel. You know, the more we progress along this thread, the more first-hand information emerges...maybe we'll get to the bottom of this after all. As for gendaito, I have three blades by RJT, but only one has a star stamp...I can't explain why that is...private orders?...one has no date, instead it has a patriotic slogan "Jinchu Hokoku" where the date would be. Lots of fun. Regards, George.

Hi Harry, welcome to gendaito land... To answer your query about "the" definitive document/text showing that a star stamp means true gendaito etc, well I have to say I suppose that no-one in the west has seen it. It has been quoted from however, point by point, showing that the metal must be Tamahagane, the sword must be folded/wrap forged in the traditional manner and properly tempered. Materials are to be supplied by the army, charcoal by the prefecture, A smith must submit two swords for testing and only when these have been tested and passed as to quality and performance can he become Rikugun Jumei Tosho. All the particulars as to army required length, measurements etc are given. All completed swords are to be tested for quality/performance and if passed, will be marked with a star. All of this detail has been quoted here: http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm This site has been written by Ohmura san and others from this board. Much of it comes from the original sources and from the researcher and scholar on gendaito Uchiyama sensei in "Nihon Gendaito Shoshi" "A Small/short History of Modern Swords" given in 7 articles in Token Bijutsu (NBTHK) over 1969-1970. All of these articles etc are in Japanese and those parts translated show conclusively that star-stamp/RJT swords are gendaito (BUT as with everything nihonto, EACH sword must be carefully assessed). I think there is no doubt, and as to them being papered, well, like you, I always want to see "proof"...that is why I have been asking the NBTHK/NTHK members for feedback...but so far, nothing. Hard to believe that such an important part of nihonto history is unknown/ignored. (BTW, Kapp/Yoshihara and Kishida etc also quote from Uchiyama and these sources). As to your Kanehide...a great maker...I once had a choice between a Kanehide and an Okishiba Yoshisada and chose the latter. It is still my favourite gendaito, but I would dearly have loved to afford both!!! And David, nice that a shinsa said some nice words about a Rikugun Jumei Tosho's work. What was the date of it and did it have a star? Also what were the other 4...stars? Regards, George.

Oh...I turns out I can answer two of the above questions...Minatogawa tosho have been papered by NBTHK/NTHK according to Rich Stein's site. Minatogawa (Masuda) Masaaki and Minatogawa (Ito) Masakiyo have received papers and Ricecracker site says that 2001 NBTHK Taikai had 3 Minatogawa on display...so...kikumon is ok for shinsa. It also says that Yasukuni and Minatogawa and Gassan line smiths works are considered gendaito, with most Yasukuni tosho and Gassan Sadakatsu and Sadakazu all receiving papers...so, I wonder if the little "Saka" stamp mattered?. So folks, any scraps of personal knowledge about traditionally made Rikugun Jumei Tosho blades being papered/refused papers would be welcome...don't be shy. Regards, George.

Nice pic Stephen...who's that glaring at us from behind...not the Mod I hope? About gendaito...It is odd is it not...it has been pointed out that Yasukunito were frowned upon but now are eagerly sought out and shinsa'd...and rightly so. I think there might be some truth in the saying that the West has a greater appreciation og Showa gendaito than the Japanese, simply because we see so many more. Logic would dictate that an equally sound group of gendaito...those made by the traditionally trained Rikugun Jumei tosho...specifically instructed to work with tamahagane, charcoal and traditional forging...and inspected to ensure that this was done, should be afforded the same respect, (although to be fair, we still don't have absolute proof that they are not shinsa'd and papered). Perhaps Japan just has no real knowledge of them? On the other hand, if star stamp are banned as a low-quality and low artistic merit group as a whole (as has been speculated upon), I wonder why all those Japanese sword books like Toko Taikan, Gendai Toko Meikan, Gendai Toko Kinko Shokukata Soran etc, etc make a point of noting when those of the Tosho listed were Rikugun Jumei Tosho? Surely it would be irrelevant to postwar sword circles and must harm their professional standing? I wonder if Minatogawajinja-to are shinsa'd? They have a horimono of kikusui...perhaps that is not considered a stamp...does anyone know if these are shinsa'd and papered? I wonder also if a tiny "Saka" stamp on a Gassan Sadakatsu blade would see it banned? It's all a mystery...hopefully I will get some info back after Easter Mr Panza...:-) Regards, George

Hey guys, don't apologise...I'm not sulking here...I appreciate your comments...it's just surprising that none of the genro who have all the connections in Japan and have given so many posts over the years on their knowledge of shinsa/papers etc have said nothing...One reason why I ask these questions is that I have never sent a sword for polish/shinsa so didn't have any first hand experience on bans etc...that's why I hoped for some feedback from the experienced. I am still making enquiries however. Heh, heh...which one am I...the donkey? I have seen the odd ebay sword with a fake star too Stephen, not too hard to spot but might take in newcomers...a pity....that's why it always pays to go on the quality of the blade, all else is secondary... Regards, George.

Well, I thank all for their comments so-far (although some have gone off topic)...but I must say that the lack of "real" feedback on star- stamp swords and shinsa papers etc is mystfying. I would have thought that NMB members, some of whom mix at the top of the Japanese sword world, would have some knowledge to share, or obtain some knowledge to share. Whether they are liked or disliked, star marked swords are a part of nihonto history and deserve to be discussed/clarified...I can't believe there is no knowledge on this subject. I will continue my inquiries anyway and will post whatever I find (pro or con). regards, George.

Peter, I agree that every sword going to shinsa will be judged on its merit, but I wonder if anyone can say that star stamp swords as a group are just "too poor" in quality and do not have the minimum requirement of "artistic merit'. I'm sure you would hear howls of rage from all those who bought them FOR their quality and artistic merit...I certainly admired all those I have seen/owned. The explanation does not work (for me) on three levels: 1. These s/stamps are, from WWII documentation and collector experience, true gendaito..that is the criterion to get papered (plenty of meritless and poor quality "nihonto" get papered as to "what they are"...why not these gendaito. 2. The Yasukunito are all the same in size, style, hada, hamon..very good, but built to the same prescribed military regulations...these are, by WWII documentation and experience, true gendaito...they were once banned now they are not. They get papered as to what they are, not the grading of their artisticness/merit, other than the subjective comment "worthy of preservation" 3. It seems that star stamp gendaito may once have been admitted to shinsa and been granted papers that they are gendaito (actual proof needed) but now are banned...the opposite of Yasukunito...why is this? have they stopped being gendaito? Is all of this an example of "fashion"? ok one year, out of favour the next...I'd truly like to know. Those Star stamp swords I have handled/owned were far more ibdividualistic and "artistic" than the Yasukunito I have handled and certainly seemed of equal quality...can anyone help. Regards, George.

The signature on the #3 sword possibly says Yoshida Toshiyuki...the "Toshi" is usually said as "nen" and means "year" (as in dates), but can be said "Toshi" when used in a name. I don't know if I'm correct here and I can find no swordsmith of that name. George.

Hi all, continuing my search for the "truth" about star-stamped swords I asked a prominent Japanese polisher whether star stamped swords had received papers at shinsa of NBTHK and NTHK. He did not answer clearly, only saying that "sadly", star stamped swords are regarded as "mass-produced" swords made for the military in WWII which are prohibited from import into Japan and are banned from shinsa in Japan. As we have clear documentary evidence that star stamped swords were made by qualified tosho, Rikugun Jumei Tosho and were required and inspected to conform to tamahagane use, fold/wrapped forging etc...we know that they are gendaito. Personal inspection by experienced collectors of the calibre of Chris Bowen and many members here confirms that they are traditional swords. Chris Bowen has also confirmed that star stamped swords have received papers, so this comment above leads to the conclusion that the ban on star-stamp swords has been imposed in more recent times? ...can anyone shine any light on this situation. To class these swords as mass-produced is clearly inexplicable. For myself, I think it amazing that blades by military affilliated smiths such as Gassan Sadakatsu, nidai Sadakazu, Miyairi Akihira, Yoshihara Kuniiye just to name a few, would be rejected as "mass-produced" just because they have a military stamp or star stamp on them. Do we have any NMB members or NBTHK or NTHK affilliates who can confirm just one star-stamp sword to have papers?...it would be helpful. Regards, George.

Hi Simon and all, A strange topic to be sure...but I think I can relate a little story that applies to investment/swords here in Australia. The parallels with your situation seem close. A family member had a a small number of good nihonto (10...6 were gendai) collected in Australia in the 70s-80s (got them for virtually nothing). In around 1980 the two best of them had almost identical quality examples by same makers come up to auction in America...one went for $US 25K and the other for 71K...call it 100,000 even. I saw a slightly lesser example of the 2nd one for sale in Tokyo in 2006 for 7.2 mil yen (which means less by negotiation)....about 90,000 dollars then. It seems that swords haven't gone up that much....not a great investment based on just this small example (I stand to be corrected of course). HOWEVER, the family member sold the 10 swords locally for $25,000 in 1985...he invested the money in property which was cheap then...he just sold 1 property in 2007 for $1 million and retired...he still has the other property....what would you say is the sounder investment strategy?...just a thought. BTW Simon, in your first post you mention the "mutsukashi Jidai"...what is this? "Mutsukashi" as I understand it is Osaka ben for muzukashi...Tokyo ben for "difficult"...do you mean the starving post-war years of the Occupation? Regards, George.

Hi Tony, can't help you with price, but here is some advice. From top to bottom these are, from the pics, and as my opinion only... 1.Chinese copy...don't buy. 2. WWII military sword by Fukumoto Kanemune...well known military maker...reasonable condition...possibly buy. 3. WWII military sword by Yoshida (something) yuki...can't find this maker, but looks best in condition, maybe buy just this one. 4. Old traditional made wakizashi...the nihonto purists would say this is the only one worth anything, but that is up to you...not much to say from the pics on this. Regards, George.

Hi Dustin, I had a look at your pics and I would have to agree with the Showato opinion...the sho stamp virtually guarantees it...also, your smith was one of two WWII Seki tosho named Kanemitsu who made military swords. There were two: Kanemitsu (GOTO Matsumasa?) worked Seki from 1939 Oct 26 Kanemitsu (OGAWA Mitsuo) worked Seki from 1942 July 3 The kanji after Noshu is most probably an abbreviation for Seki. I haven't seen it abbreviated this way before so it may be his "personalised" trademark...but which of the two he is I can't say. Regards, George.

Thanks Kiyoshi san. Joe, this link by Morita san confirms that your Norimitsu is RJT and his personal name was Norisada. George.

Joe, I checked your link and Yasumoto Akira might be my Yasumoto Tadashi, I think it can be read both ways (my reading probably wrong though).. It says I think that Yoshimitsu is his uncle and Norimitsu is his father....which fits the info from Ono. George.

Hi Sword Guy Joe, I found a little extra information to add to Morita san's answer... but there is not much info on him. First, he is listed in Hawley 1981 as NOR 513 in Iwate Prefecture, 1940. Signed Oshu Gosho Ju Norimitsu Saku Kore. In Ono GTKSS 1971 p.68 he is given a brief mention as part of the Iwate Yasumoto swordsmith family line as follows: Yasumoto Noriharu, b.Mei 37, signed Oshu Gosho ju Minamoto Yoshimitsu. He was RJT and studied under his father? Yasumoto Kinzo (or Kanemasa?) and also swordsmiths Yoshihara Kuniiye, shodai Kato Sukekuni, Miyairi Akihira (all very good).. This Yoshimitsu had a younger brother Yasumoto Norimitsu (Morita san says personal name was Norisada) (this is your guy), no other info. Your Norimitsu had a son Yasumoto Tadashi who worked post-war and signed Gensho. He studied from his father Norimitsu and his uncle Yoshimitsu and was chosen in the first Shinsakumeito Exhibition. That's about all I found...mention of his grandfather, brother and his son, but almost nothing on him...sorry. Regards, George.

Almost certainly a showato IMHO. I don't think the mei is ICHIBUN either (a good gendaitosho) ...it looks like ENDO ICHIMONJI, a recorded WWII Seki tosho who made gunto swords between 1939-1945. This is probably an honest mis-description by the seller... Regards, George.

Hi Moriyama san, Yes my documents definitely say Kurimoto and give the Kanji for Kurimoto also, but i thought the mei on the nakago looked like Ki, but maybe a poor pic...thanks for correcting that for us...I will make a note on my document to say that the actual mei says "KI". George.

Hi Josh, This mei says in full: Seki Kuri moto Kane masa Saku meaning Kurimoto Kanemasa of Seki made this. There is a Kurimoto Masakazu working in Seki town in WWII who used the name Kanemasa. He began making swords for the military in Showa 14 year 10 month 20 day (20th Oct 1939). I would say from the tang that it is a showato and the cost of re-polish (if anyone would do it) is probably more than buying another such sword in good crisp condition. Just my opinion. Regards, George.

PS...I just realised I posted the wrong Ohmura site link...the one Jacques posted and I re-translated is http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_115.htm Just in case you want to compare Ohmura san's translation with mine. Also, it occurs to me that the group 2. private Tosho and sword companies most likely worked "off-site" also. Geo.

Hi all, Great to hear the views of all. From what I "re"translated...and I don't claim to be a language expert, the star stamp certainly is limited to properly trained swordsmiths forging proper swords.... All the swords I have seen with a star have looked like gendaito to me...also Chris Bowen, who has seen 100's says that with rare exception, they were gendaito. I tried to check the lists of gendaitosho who had been papered and while a fair number are these army commissioned smiths, it is not possible to tell the date of the sword and whether stars are present, but Chris Bowen's experience with star-stamp swords being papered is to be relied upon...but as has been said by Jacques, it would also be VERY helpful if a NBTHK member were to somehow check the records (published in Token Bijutsu perhaps?) and let us know of a few specific cases. That would settle the star-stamp/gendaito question...of course, it still comes back to the quality of each blade submitted for shinsa. Bruno mentioned the togishi's comment about the difficulty of telling tamahagane in a blade, quite true...but as it is well known that the army supplied tamahagane to Jumei Tosho and they were instructed to use it, and forge swords in the traditional manner, and the army inspector then stamped the successfully examined Jumei Tosho blade with the star...it is reasonable to conclude that "as a group" these star blades can be classed as gendaito of tamahagane...I feel the star cannot be linked to the 1940 government regulation about stamping all "non-traditional" blades swords...implying that any stamp means "non-traditional". As with all things Japanese, there are exceptions of course. Regards, George.

A recent thread showed a wide spread of opinion on star stamp swords of WWII...gendaito or not? Some consider the star to indicate simply "made for the army, nothing more", some consider any stamp to signify military swords and thus essentially militaria. Some consider the star stamp and certain other stamps as signifying true gendaito. I read Ohmura's translation of star stamped swords in "Zoheito" (Arsenal swords) as posted by Jacques...see http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm and found I was confused as to Ohmura san's exact meaning, so I decided to do my own translation of the first part to see if there was any additional information. My translation is as follows: Army workshops (Zoheisho) made two classes of sword for commissioned officers; under direction and directly manufactured. Commonly lumped together under one name, they became popularly called "Zoheito" (Arsenal swords). HONTANRENTO (True forged swords) 1. Swordsmiths were commissioned to forge swords at the named workshop's forge (the nakago was marked with the swordsmith's mei and the workshop's logo/mark). Tokyo Hohei Kosho: Yokoyama Sukekane, Morioka Masayoshi; Tokyo No 1 Army Workshop: Yoshihara Nobushiro, (Akihiro, Kuniiye same man); Osaka Kosho: Gassan Sadakatsu, Sadakazu (nidai), Sadashige, Masakiyo; Kokura Kosho: Hakuryushi Tadataka, Taira Sadashige, Kanenobu; Kyuheikisho (refurbishment workshop): Yoshihara, others. 2. Private swordsmiths, and also Sword companies were commissioned to forge swords (nakago marked with mei and simple Army Star inspection mark). 3. Army specification Gendai forged swords (nakago marked with mei, date and star). Rikugun Jumei Tosho made swords of the style. They were trialled from Sho 15. From Sho 17 it was implemented nationally. For efficiency, a big break was made with the tradition of individuallistic handwork and non-uniformity of Nihonto "True Standardisation" was tried for the first time. Every sword was subjected to severe inspection to maintain quality/performance. (I am not sure if I have translated the following correctly) The former drawback of testing each sword (as in old sword making in meito times) by tameshigiri was not used. This was the first time such a situation occurred. The next part of the article is about mass-produced swords. From the above, it seems that true gendaito appear with 1. tosho mei and small logo stamp, eg "saka", and "na" etc (eg Ichihara Nagamitsu with "saka"). 2. Blades with mei (no date?) and star stamp made "on-site". 3. Blades with mei, date and star-stamp made "off-site" by Rikugun Jumei Tosho . All the smiths who made these swords were top quality smiths, so the presence of a star stamp or "saka" or "na" should not automatically dismiss the sword as "Militaria gunto". Jumei Tosho also made swords without star stamps, some with "contract numbers" on tang (not assembly numbers which are usually painted and correspond to the arabic numbers stamped on the fittings). Chris Bowen has seen hundreds of these swords and all (with rare exception) have been clearly true nihonto. We know that Rikugun Jumei Tosho were issued tamahagane by the army, they were issued charcoal by the prefecture. They had to conform in swordmaking to the Army regulation sizes, lengths, hamon etc, but also to ensure all swords were tamahagane, wrapped construction etc...true nihonto. Chris Bowen also says these star stamped swords have been papered by NBTHK anf NTHK. It would seem that collectors who find a blade with a star-stamp, but cannot find the smith on the Jumei Tosho list may be wise to check if it has a date? as it may indicate a sword described in (2.), ie stamped with a star "on-site", but not necessarily made by a Jumei Tosho. I hope this information is of interest...I hope also that I have not made any terrible mistakes, if so, hopefully our Japanese speakers will correct my post. I do this post to help the discussion on Star-stamped swords, not to confuse it. Regards, George.

Hi Bob, Stephen is correct...full inscription is FUKUMOTO AMAHIDE. I would say it is a Showato. The mei is what is called "daisaku daimei"...written by Fukumoto Amahide's son Kanemune. These are a well-known group of WWII Seki swordsmiths...opinions vary as to quality. There is quite a bit of information on them, with examples of mei in John Slough's book..pp. 24-27. Regards, George.

Hi all, close on two days have passed and I have been off-line. Terrible storms, hail, lightning etc here...internet down...$100 mil in damage in city/suburbs....but, I have been translating the passage on "Zoheito" (Arsenal Swords) with Star Stamps by Ohmura that Jacques posted as a link on this thread...very interesting results which I am still checking. I have also just PM'd Chris Bowen about it and when I get a reply (which hopefully will assist my findings), I will post it as a new discussion thread about Star-Stamp swords. Regards from a victim of the taiphun... George.

Thanks David, so...still no confirmation that star stamp blades were papered. I think I'll have to have a go at translating those passages in Ohmura myself...only trouble is I often don't understand exactly the meaning of some sentences...still, if I uncover any secrets on star stamps I'll post it. Thanks again, George.