george trotter

Hi Stephen, No...the "Na" is the "Nagoya" stamp and the next one down looks like katakana "ho"...used as batch/order/contract indicator (eg in English A1,2,3...B1,2,3...C1,2 etc)...most common on back ridge of Mantetsuto. If it is "ho" there will probably be a number below it? It also looks like "ki"...tree.. but I don't know the significance of "ki" if that's what it is. Regards, George.

Hi Rich, The kanji given in the link (nihontoclub), is the same as the mei on your sword...however, the dates on "nihontoclub" are too early for your smith I think. I see Morita san is looking into this with you so he might have a Japanese source that mentions him...I can find nothing and he is not in Hawley as a gendai smith. Looks like a nice blade by the way. ( I can't find the reference in the second link (sword forum international)...too many posts to open. Regards, George.

Hi Gustav, From the pics, your sword is by Kojima Kanenori. He was a Seki WWII swordsmith and this blade is one of his from there...if you look at John Slough's book p.57, you will see this same signature with the little "na" (Nagoya) stamp...his work also has been found with Seki and Sho stamps on it. In your blade, I would say that the signature is cut by the factory signature cutter guy, called a nakirishi. Your blade is not a "machine-made" blade (like sabres and NCO swords and navy dirks), but does have handwork and a hamon. I would say possibly a Showato? ...but maybe an oil-quenched hamon. Kanenori however also made traditional gendaito and became a Rikugun Jumei Tosho (Army Commissioned Swordsmith). He won 1st seat in 1941 Sword Exhibition with a good gendaito... but your blade is not one of these. Regards, George

Oh I see Brian...doesn't sound good for the blade I agree. Well, what to do, what to do...it's back to you Patrik. Maybe Grey's advice...a reputable polisher for an assessment... he should be able to tell you if the metal/hamon are acid affected. A pity if it is ruined. regards, george.

The keshifuda in the pic says "futaya"...what does it mean..."futa shop"? What does the fuchi/kashira say...is it "tashin"? George.

I didn't realise this sword hamon has been washed in acid. What do you mean Brian? Is it a false hamon? Regards, George.

Curran san, I have seen a number of firarms that have been in fires. Initially, they are a mixture of "matted" surface and sections of "smooth/blued" surface. If left exposed to air they slowly take on rust in the matted areas, leaving the "blued/patinated" areas free from rust. This tsuba looks to me like it also has been in a fire and laid undisturbed in a shed or shelf somewhere and has taken on rust in the "matted" areas, leaving the "blued/patinated" areas untouched...just an opinion based on observation. Whether this heating (if that's what it was) has had a detrimental effect on the tsuba, I can't say for sure...certainly it would probably not be "unsafe" as a firearm would be. Perhaps it can be restored? Regards, George.

Hi Patrik, I love the hamon. I don't collect pre-Meiji swords any more, but that hamon I would not be able to resist...superb IMHO. I would treat the blade with respect...not wishing to disrespect any other members, but I would not give it to a student polisher or re-patinate the tang myself...I think you should inspect it carefully for fatal flaws such as yakikuzure (break in the hamon)...if OK, it is beautiful enough that it be sent for a proper polish (insist on sashikomi polish) and professional repatination and shirasaya and shinsa in Japan. You will then have a beautiful sword and an attribution...if he was "nobody" who cares, it is a very nice sword. You can re-patinate the tsuba and make up a set of mounts...fantastic. You got the sword for nothing really...spend its true cost on doing it up and enjoying it forever...or sell it to me so I can do it...will $150 be alright? Regards, George.

Nice scroll...pity it's not dated. I wonder who Matsumoto was?...I like his personal name "Toko" which means "sword love" (must be made up?).This could be an example of a person's life/work being dictated by the name given to him in childhood...as in if you name your child "Jeeves", you're pretty sure what his career will be... Regards, George.

Hi Rich, I had a look on the link you provided and either I did something wrong or you did?...I can see no smith Kanemori there using the same "Kanemori" kanji as you give in your opening post. Regards, George.

Dang! You're right...it's a good topic...move over guys. Geo.

Hi Ford et al... I hope my little thinking out loud on the link between Ainu/Canada art hasn't put the kybosh on this discussion...I was only speculating on a "Japanese" aesthetic that has long intrigued me...and since the word "Ainu" was uttered, I couldn't resist a mention of my own obsevations. I hope too that jumping off the ice floe isn't taken as a loss of interest in this discussion...I just feel I have said a lot; not all of it relevent to the topic, and thought I'd quieten down for a while to give someone else a chance (also...I'm about dried up in my knowledge pool I think). I intend to follow the thread and perhaps comment if something triggers an opportunity to contribute further...so, Ford, please don't feel that this topic is ended...I think it has a lot of potential. For me at least...being as perhaps the Ainu are the "true" Japanese and the "Japanese" as we know them are later, and as the later "Japanese" art is largely influenced from the Asian mainland from the earliest times (at least since they consciously re-connected to their mainland roots in the 7-9th centuries), I feel decidedly unqualified to identify what can be called "free from outside aesthetics" in "Japanese" art...I also feel a bit shakey on identifying much "western" aesthetic in Japanese art as much of it is itself "outside influenced". I really do need some guidance from the knowledgeable, such as yourself and other members. So...please keep it going. Regards, George. PS, as Keith has just pointed out...the influences and aesthetics depicted in tosogu may have more to do with the economic/political situation in Japan. War/upheaval = simple, utilitarian designs and materials. Peace = more whimsical and time-consuming techniques in manufacture (also higher expense). Peace/affluence/market demand and "one upmanship" = artistic stimulation/innovation/ flights of artistic fancy. This leads to the need to dazzle with knowledge of exotic "differences" in the art of competing artizans = "outside/western aesthetics" appearing in "Japanese" art.

This is certainly a fertile field and I have to agree that more voices are needed. I am going to get off the ice floe for a while to let someone else on who wants to contribute... BUT, before I go, I have to digress off-topic (sort of) for a brief comment on the Ainu artistic aesthetic. Talk about "influence" leading us back past the accepted "Japanese" aesthetic to the possible source on the Asian mainland...I must say the Japanese aesthetic may be much older than that...that Ainue graphic art and carvings are IMHO the source of the graphic art and carvings of the Haida Indians of the Queen Charlotte Islands on the British Columbia coast...also of many of the Pacific NW Indians. If you look at Ainu art in their woven fabrics and Pac NW Canadian Indian art in their fabrics and decorations, you'd think them the same group. I have long held a personal theory that the PacNW Indians came from the same source as the Ainu...perhaps Japan...maybe the PacNWI are the "lost" or "exploring" or "migrating" Ainu fishermen of the past. I say this because I lived in the QCI and have seen both their art and that of the Ainu...so, Ford...perhaps THIS is the true "Japanese" aesthetic? I am not suggesting that we go down this road however as Ainu seem not to be a part of Nihonto in the sense we know it...but this road may date back to the last ice-age. I will follow this thread with interest. Regards, George

Hi uskragnut...(better sign your post before Brian the Mod gets you), Your blade looks to be greatly shortened (Osuriage). The signature is gone, as is all of the original tang IMHO. What you see under the habaki is "Aki" or "Mei"...the polishers mark, and the single carved Japanese character is "Haru" I think (spring). The Haru character and the carved "squiggles" appear to be the remains of some original blade decoration (horimono). It appears that these two blade decorations are now in the tang (nakago) due to the severe shortening IMHO. The hamon does seem to disappear in the boshi, but this may just be due to the state of polish...can you provide better blade pics...and...what is on the shirasaya...any inscription (sayagaki). Interesting blade. Regards, George.

Hi Keith, I'm glad you took the plunge! If I've comprehended properly...the examples shown as "Kotosho 1250"..."Kotosho 1400" and "Onin Tsuba 1467" would be the purest un-influenced Japanese aesthetic? They are the work of Japanese artisans using common, everyday inspiration as decoration. They are simple objects made in a minimalist style and material for a specific function, and are thus, in the "Japanese aesthetic". With the 650AD tomb sword fittings shown, these are the "purest" of the "uninfluenced" items? All others begin to show borrowed/influenced from outside characteristics? (not just from the west. Regards, George.

Wise comment...a good sword is a good sword. About my name "ringing a bell"...did you hear about when Quasimodo fell out of the bell tower of Notre Dame?...the people in the street asked who this grotesque man was? "I don't know his name " said one man" but his face rings a bell". Another said "There were twin brothers who both rang the church bells. I don't know which one this is 'cos they're dead ringers for each other". Regards, :-) George.

Morita san's ID is correct...a good gendai smith of Taisho-Showa eras. 2nd generation. Died 1947. Highly respected maker...the date 1935 relates to his beginning the use of the title "Hitachi no Suke". He was Rikugun jumei Tosho...special noted seat 1941. under normal circumstances I would like to have this sword in my collection...however...the nakago suffers from what looks like patches of deep rust...a rotten tang is bad enough on a shinto balde, but is fatal on a gendaito. The blade is very obscured by abrading...if it could be purchased cheap, it might be worth the risk for polishing. I think the rusty tang however might prevent it from being papered...also, it may have a star stamp somewhere which may cause problems with entry to Japan . regards, George.

Ha...you've discovered the curse of the nengo! No, Showa starts in 1926...BUT...the start year is 1, not 0 as in western calendar. eg, last year of Taisho is Tai 15 (1926) and start year of next reign is Showa 1 (1926)..Showa 2 is 1927...so Showa 19 is 1944. Last year of Showa is Sho 64 (1989)...first year of Heisei is Hei 1 (1989)...so this 2010 year is Hei 22. I suppose this "doubling" of end/start year probably accounts for a century or so of "extra years' if you add up all the nengos from the beginning. this has always been a problem for westerners until you learn to "dump" the "0". Regards, George.

Hi David... it's much more fun, and a learning thing, if you try to do it yourself. Here's a clue...it's WWII period and the initials of his name are N-- S--- Want to have a shot at it? Regards, George.

Hi John, thanks for your comments. I agree that the hitsu is a pretty sure indication of Japanese usage, although, if intended for export to the west, it could be classed as a "Japaneseness" on a "western themed" Japanese produced article intended for use on a western sword, but of no practical use/significance....just an artistic feature While the VOC certainly stamped metal with their logo, I have NEVER seen one so small; this fact, taken together with your quite reasonable comments on kebori and the "reverse" cutting by a person unfamiliar with the western alphabet, strongly confirm a "native" Japanese maker....obviously (because of the mistake) not working to VOC direction/supervision. I can't imagine why he would hide the voc under the seppa however...that is a western trait...perhaps he saw an example on something similar and imitated it. So, it does seem that it is a Japanese object within which I think I see the small-sword guard of Europe above all else. The design to me is certainly western..but what?..influence? borrowing? Still very hard to classify (for me). I think we (at least I) need Ford to comment on "influences" in this specimen of Japanese make... Re Sanjuro's comment about Namban being associated with China also...I am not knowledgeable enough on Namban to comment in general, but in this particular example I feel the west/occident is strongly apparent. Regards, George.

Hi John L, While I can't comment on your analysis of the Namban guard/VOC manufacture in precise detail, (mainly because I am not sure of some of your terms)...I can comment on the VOC, being employed at the Western Australian Museum for 26 years and directly concerned in the study of the VOC (Vereenigde Oostindische Company), as we have one of the only recovered VOC shipwrecks in the world (1629). The VOC did not come into official existence until c.1602-3, so your dating to after 1639 seems reasonable. Virtually all their trade goods from Europe were marked VOC, as were tools, weapons, company property and money. It is always possible that the VOC did have "Europen themed" Japanese tsuba made (as you say). IMHO they would be made in Japan and traded back to Europe, but I have never heard of them. Your comment on the tiny VOC logo stated that they are kebori...if put on by the Dutch they would be (in my experience) stamped, and certainly would not be" reversed" as shown here...is the pic in reverse? I provide this information to assist the discussion. Regards George.

Oops, again I have no pic...but I remember a perfect illustration of "asobi" (playfulness) in a pair of menuki...on one side (facing toward the kashira) was a fox wearing a conical straw hat and a grass raincoat. He was poling a raft furiously up a river and looking earnestly forward. On the other side (facing towards the fuchi), dressed identically, also poling a raft furiously up the river was a rabbit...only he was looking back over his shoulder (at the kashira...at the fox chasing him!)...it was fantastic. It was not related to the rest of the fittings so must have been made on a whim, and, like the horse/hoofprints tsubas was a delight, but would be nothing if separated. Sorry to rave on, but this thread is full of possibilities...I'll be quiet now I promise. Geo.

What a great discussion...yes, a pity I don't have a pic of the "pebbles" tsuba to illustrate my comments; it was 30 years ago and there was no such thing as a phone camera...I might add one thing that I've just remembered which might reflect Steve's "mono no aware" (the pathos of things)...that is that the stone marker on the tsuba cast a shadow...perhaps the setting sun? I suppose this might reflect the "passing of time" and "the transience of life"....mujo/aware...? Regards, George. Would it be good if members could also post a pic of an item they have/know about which illustrates one of the meanings in Ford's list of themes in Japanese art?....it would be interesting also if one of these themes was found to have been transferred into an item depicting a "western" theme/influence/object.

I think it is Moriyuki...early-mid Shinto, probably Takata school...several listed in Hawley for Bungo. Looks like it would polish up to be a nice sword. Regards, George.

I'm inclined to agree with Stephen and John, I think it is Nezumi san too...stepping out of the house to throw some water from a bucket...to keep the dust down on the road? Regards, George.