george trotter

Good point Lee...I must say i don't know the answer to the ring/thud debate. I suppose you are talking about cast iron bells? (we only used the ping test on iron tsuba to see if they were cast, not alloy ones). The bells cast from ferrous material that ring beautifully are probably those that pass the "ring" test. Many must be scrapped because they don't ring and of course, we don't hear these? Ultimately all iron/steel was molten at some point so all can be considered "cast". Some are then rolled/wrought, some are not. Some ring, some don't. I suppose, as Brian said initially, the ping test was discarded as it is so random? If members are testing their iron tsubas and are finding that even the new-made cast copies are ringing, then the test seems to be unreliable...or else we don't truly understand the metallurgy of what makes iron/steel ring. Since we used to use it 30 odd years ago to find "cast" iron tsuba and found it "generally" reliable, either something has changed dramatically in the composition of cast iron tsuba in that time, or we old geezers were deceiving ourselves. Still, the fact that metallurgists and engineers still use the ping test must say something as it still detects imperfect cast ferrous material components (train wheels, push-rods etc)...I haven't heard that it is used to detect faults in cast non-ferrous material, but maybe? I suppose from this, the "thud" we were hearing may not have been an indication of a cast tsuba, but an indication of some internal flaw...irrespective of whether the tsuba was cast iron or forged iron? Regards, george.

Good advice Chuck, only you can decide the best course for you and your seller. Whether or not to use known modern castings on restoration is an individual choice also. As for us derailing the thread (well me actually), although it was lighthearted, it was an interesting and related line...I think the salient point has been raised that these (now) obvious castings have rung true...I suppose it may well be advanced casting using steel as has been said. It is disturbing that these "copies' (if that's what they are) are so hard to detect. It certainly makes things harder for collectors... regards, George.

I have seen this name or similar somewhere...not so long ago...I'll try to remember. Many swords were made for the Navy in Seki...these usually have a Seki or Sho stamp on them. Koishikawa Arsenal and other sites also made swords and these often have variations of an anchor/anchor in circle etc. There were also private smiths contracted to the Navy, but not much is known on their names, or how many there were...do you have any other marks/stamps etc on the sword that might help us identify it? Regards, George.

Ah Keith, ...a rim bonking tool...I think you've hit it (sorry :-))...explains why one doesn't see any old tsuba collecting geezers with one black fingernail at shinsas anymore... Geo.

I agree, those who have some engineering/metallurgy background will not just dismiss this test...I know my grandfather, a blacksmith and wheelwright by trade would tap test any number of bearings, rims, drive rods etc to see if they were sound...the clear ring is what he listened for. It must mean something. To say that this test was discussed at a forum and dismissed really begs the question...what practical qualifications did the forumites have and what were the terms of reference? I say this because I remember that virtually all "thud" tsubas, were (as a rule of thumb) certainly of an inferior "look" and most failed items were clearly cast, not wrought...in fact I remember it was possible to predict with some accuracy which would fail, just by the "look" of the work/texture etc. Despite the "thumbs-down" I suspect that there will always be a lot of "closet rim pingers" (listening Keith?) checking their tsubas...we all hate that dull thud! If nothing else, the test will say something about the composition of the tsuba (truly homogenous/cracked/cast/airpocket/slag inclusion etc). I suppose, conversely, someone "up -to-date" can tell us the "new" method of testing, or at least tell us why some thud and some ring when "pinged" under the old test?...and what it means? Lots of fun, George.

Speaking of Kanabo...while slightly off-topic, folks might be interested to know that the Kanabo school of Yamato (Nara) were called this (according to legend) because their swords were considered to be "metal bars"...efficient, but without grace!!! I once owned a good blade by Kanabo Masasane 1532 Mas 849 and it was a very good, sharp blade. Despite the sneers, it appears that the quietly sensible warriors in Sengoku battles prized them highly for their effectiveness in battle when fighting dismounted. These were the prototype of the gunto swords of WWII (I mean in dimensions: 2.0 - 2.3 shaku and in purpose: fighting on foot). It is interesting that my Kanabo Masasane was mounted in shin-gunto koshirae for service again in WWII infantry battles...it was a sword that fitted it's purpose 400 years apart in the two major military upheavals of Japan ...not too many sword types and period styles can make that claim of such perfect design. Just thought I'd mention it... regards, george.

Dang...back to biting the rim then...? Geo.

Mr Basho12, You may like to know a little detail about this smith...he was a Showa period smith working with a number of others at Seki in WWII, but you may not find him on any lists. My research puts him as Amaike Saemonjo Yoshimasa. He worked with two family members Amaike Ginichiro Masatsune (prob.his father) and Masatsune's younger brother Amaike Ginjiro Kanenaga (both these men listed as Seki Tosho). All three made swords with stamps with nakirishi mei (name cutter's signatures) as well as swords with no stamps and their shoshinmei (genuine self-cut signatures). your Yoshimasa is known to have used Yasuki iron in swords. Only Masatsune was considered an upper level smith, having won the 4th seat in the shinsakuto exhib. in 1941. the family name is sometimed mistakenly written as Amachi and Masa (in script) is sometimes written "shin" (heart) which is incorrect. The blades I have seen without sho/seki stamps have been fairly good showato...trad made but not tamahagane. This information comes from my personal research. Oshigata of these men are in the old F&G yellow oshi book #175 & 82, Slough p.197 and 3 in Rich Stein's Showa database (Masastune, Kanenaga, Kanenaga)...all are nakirishi mei, but by the same hand as cut your signature...so they must have had a reasonable output. Hope this helps. George.

Great thread Ford and all...since we are talking a fair bit about cast iron tsuba, maybe I'll risk being laughed off the stage and mention what we "old geezers" always used to do to "test" for cast iron (apologies if this has already been mentioned and discarded/derided etc). i haven't collected tsuba for over 30 years, but back then we used to do the "ping" test. We'd hold the tsuba horizontal in the left hand by placing thumb under and second finger over...tips meeting in nakago ana. this allowed a firm/safe hold while leaving tsuba virtually "floating" and loose in our hold. With right hand finger we'd "flick" the rim. If it rings clear like a bell it is forged...if a dull thud, it is a casting. We believed in this test as it always appeared reliable to us...is this still done? or is it a discredited old wive's tale...? regards, George.

Chris, I agree...this is probably a shop/company mark...my faded memory tells me the last one I had in hand was signed "...michi"...so if my memory is correct, we can expect to see a small number of mei associated with this stamp. My memory also tells me that I was not particularly impressed with the quality...as you say, maybe traditional forging...but tamahagane? So Dave...I think this may be close to the answer to your question? Regards, George.

I just noticed this on Ohmura's Military Swords of Japan site. I appears that at the Kokura Arsenal, blades that came through their system were stamped with their "pile of cannonballs" logo, but sometimes had the smaller stamp of "ho" (like yours) to indicate Factory No 1 and a small "se" stamp to indicate Factory No.2. Perhaps Nagoya ("Na") also had several divisions and "ho" indicates this? I once owned a star stamped sword by RJT smith Muto Hidehiro and it had on the nakago mune in katakana script the characters "ko" (Kokura?) and below it "ho" (like yours). I think it must be some military code mark for their system of issue/mounting etc. http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_115.htm Regards, George.

Welcome Jinsoo san...your work and assistance is most valuable. Regards, George Trotter.

This came up on ebay...I can't tell much from the pics, but it is only the second "Tan" stamped sword I have noticed in 40 years. This seems to be Nagamura Kiyonobu who was a Seki Tosho in WWII. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0580558268 maybe members can give feedback on any swords they have seen with this stamp and their makers names so we can identify whether this is a smith's "private" mark or a "company" mark used by a number of smiths? Regards, Geo. edit: this link doesn't work...sorry...at least we have one smith name for this mark.

Hi Chris, thanks for that info...I will get my daughter in Japan to hunt up a copy...could you send the pic to my email address (you have it) as a pdf and I will send it on to her...? Regards, George.

Stephen san, I actually wonder about those first 2 characters...might be Seki Ju...or..??? Some of those WWII name cutter guys deserve a good smack!!! Regards, George

I can see where Stephen is making Kanetaka...but, it is very difficult to read, so I think it is Kaneoto..."Seki? Ju Nin Fujii Kaneoto" meaning "Fujii Kaneoto, a resident person of Seki? (made this)". There was a Fujii Kaneoto working as a Seki swordsmith making military swords between 1942-1945. The little Seki stamp above the signature shows that this is a WWII Seki produced military sword. Regards, Geo.

It is definitely a Seki product of WWII...the nmei is hard to read but I THINK it might be Watanabe Masanobu...I had a quick check of the Seki swordsmith list and there is a Watanabe Masanobu, so it may be him...sorry, can't tell you any other info. regards, George.

Hi Chris, what a clear concise assessment you have given...I thank you, I also have observed these swords for 40+ years and have to agree with all you have said....I too have a very high respect for star stamp blades. While I don't collect Sho and Seki stamped swords, I do have two by these recorded makers of Seki which have no stamps and exhibit hada and nie...I keep them for interest...they are not sunobe blades, but neither are they tamahagane gendaito...I call them "showato", trad. made, but western mill steel. I trust that this next is not a departure from the thread, but it may be timely, so may I mention the "matsu" in a circle stamp shown in Fuller & Gregory and Kapp & Yoshihara...I have seen only two swords with this stamp and they have been exclusive to two smiths...both good gendaitosho, the Yamagami brothers, Akihisa and Munetoshi. The blades with this stamp (and no others), have both been in Type 3 fittings, were both true gendaito and both dated 1943 or after. Munetoshi was RJT. I conclude from this small sample, that this Matsu in a circle stamp may have been a "shop" stamp for the Yamagami brothers of Niigata. Can you comment Chris? Regards, George.

Hi Keith, as you say, there were 8 generations from Kanbun down to Ansei...good luck on your study... The kanji on the seppa is merely "Ichi" one and "Ue" upper...same as "Jo" in "Josaku" upper make. Regards, George.

Thanks Jacques...I asked because I have seen a small amount of such "cross-hatched" choji nodes on a Yoshioka? (I think) Ichimonji blade but never so many as exist together in the habaki area of Todds's sword...I just wondered if there is a specific name for this...very difficult to name (for me)...but maybe some members have information on this type of hamon? BTW, I had kani-no-hasami choji blade by a modern WWII smith called Iijima Masayuki (stamped mei)...but I suppose it could also be called koshi-no-hiraita midare. regards, George.

Wow, that is an amazing hamon and boshi too Dirk. I agree about Ichimonji for Dirk's hamon Jacques, do you include Todd's hamon as Ichimonji too?...what term would you use to class Todd's hamon? regards, George.

Hi Todd, This is the sword from the sayagaki translation thread I take it? Nice sword..looks quite healthy. I just had a quick look at the books and the characteristics of this blade (mokume/O-hada, small kissaki, suguba and mei) seem to fit nicely with the descriptions there. Looks like you have come upon a nice blade...nice condition too. I notice in the boshi pic the shinogiji has mokume but also some masame appears in other pics of the shinogiji...I suppose this is the beginnings of masame hada in the shinogiji which characterises many swords soon to appear in shinto times? Thanks for sharing... regards, George.

Hi Todd, That is one unusual hamon...I for one have never seen it before, and I have seen a lot of swords. I can see it being classed as hako and uma no ha, but with respect, IMHO I don't think it quite fits them?...has anyone seen this before? (got a pic?)...it looks like it could be called higaki ("cross-hatched"). Regards, George.

Hi Jason and all... interesting thread, and a nice find Jason. Seems to be an interesting sword, but from the characteristics I see in the pics, and the nakago, mei, yasuri etc...I'd agree with Chris and all that it is MOST LIKELY, not tamahagane, though it might be fold forged and water tempered (need really good pics to comment). To help you study...Yoshisada was a Seki Tosho of WWII. He started swords on 25th Oct 1939 and his real name was Ishihara Teiichi. I think the mounts are civilian?...and there is no stamp, so as Chris says, this is probably a private order, or somehow "outside" the military system. The signature style is definitely WWII and I would venture to say that it is kazuuchimei (cut "in-house"). The style looks like the style of Fukumoto Kanemune and you can see examples of his mei cutting in Slough..pp. 24-27. He cut mei for many smiths who worked within the Fukumoto Amahide (Kanemune's father) "co-op" sword system in Seki...of course Yoshisada probably cut many himself also. Only careful study will determine the hada/nie combination of construction (forged/ water quenched etc?), but experience has taught us that few of these swords are traditional tamahagane gendaito, but a fair number are very creditable showato (trad forged/quenched) but using western style steels. Certainly, for the purpose they were made, these are very adequate swords. If it is any help, I once owned a Yoshisada sword (sig as on Rich Stein's site), and it did have hada and a very bright, hard construction, with seki stamp...but not, I would say, Tamahagane. Regards, George.

Oh yes, you're right...Hmmm, well I suppose it must mean the sword was made in Seki (Gifu) and then, as part of the process (mounting?), passed through the Nagoya arsenal? Geo.