Alan F

Truth is, I do kind of regret not getting a Tanobe sayagaki. The whole process of sending the sword back to Japan for shinsa was very stressful. Not just because I was worried that it might not pass, but because I feared that it might disappear in shipping. I also saw the fees mounting up: shinsa fees, Bob Benson's fees, shipping fees, new shirasaya cost, and Tanobe sayagaki cost. I also didn't want it languishing since it was not insured. There was an interminable wait for it to be returned, and an even longer wait for the new papers. The NBTHK papers are the real testament to it's value, I feel. A couple of photos of the Honami Koson sayagaki, which I may have posted before. Pietro

How much does Tanobe sensei charge for his sayagaki? That has to be considered also. The sword which I submitted in 2014 already had a sayagaki by a Honami. I declined to have a new shirasaya made, and a sayagaki by Tanobe sensei. I do not regret it, but I would have been curious to know what Tanobe sensei would have written. Would it have added value to my sword? I'm not sure, but I don't really think so. Had the sword come in a naked shirasaya, then I would surely have asked for a sayagaki. Pietro, a.k.a. Loco Al

Is it so very difficult to stay on topic? The title of this thread was: Kiyomaro Value. Brian said something earlier in this thread about fake Tokubetsu Hozon papers, and then Darcy said something (for which he later had to correct himself), and then we got sidetracked (derailed) into a discussion about fake NBTHK papers. Anyone tuning in now might think that we are questioning the validity of the papers for the Kiyomaro. That is not the case. If you want to talk about fake papers, start a new thread. Pietro

Certainly, I was thinking along the same lines when Jean brought attention to this auction piece. Many unknowns: Why is it for sale now? Why is it for sale on Mr. Tsuruta's website? Do other high end sword dealers in Japan perhaps charge more commission? Who is the consignor? Is he in urgent need of money or is he approaching infirmity (not well)? Are there not enough interested buyers in Japan (perhaps not so easy to sell in Japan presently)? Is there an underlying issue (as Pete said) with the sword itself? Is this possibly Mr. Tsuruta's own sword? I like the last line in Mr. Tsuruta's listing: Please note: In regards to this item, we cannot accept the credit card payment. By the way, there's one bid already. Okay, who couldn't resist checking to see if I was BS'ing? Pietro

Ah, that's a good point (no return policy). Something I hadn't even considered. "So when you watch something like this go by you should pay attention. And don't just assume that he's reaching for the clouds with his price and he will deal it out the back door for 30% less than he's asking. There is no reason for him to flush this down the toilet at 20 million yen because the Japanese market will support the price." Oh, I am paying attention. I understand that it is quite rare. Considered to be one of the best Shinshinto smiths, who committed suicide at age 42. Never said anything about prospective buyers expecting to get this sword for a 20 - 30% discount. If that seemed to be implied, then my mistake. All I was saying was that I do not believe that prospective buyers of this sword would appreciate being forced to commit to "point and click" in order to acquire it. Does that make sense? Maybe I am just old fashioned, and relatively poor, to even consider doing so for such a major purchase as this. Maybe it's not so different from a Christie's or Bonhams auction, in principle. I don't know. Let's see if any bids surface. Anyone want to bet on it? I think that it will sell (perhaps for same as asking price, or just a bit less) but only after the auction has closed. If you bid on it, then you have to let us know. I am sure that all NMB members who have read this thread will now be watching this auction with keen interest. Pietro

Because the consignor was either not interested in pursuing higher level papers, or he had other priorities. Perhaps he now has to sell it due to financial constraints or impending infirmity. It would be interesting to know if it had ever been submitted for Juyo papers (and failed), though. I suspect that it would be a shoe-in for Juyo, if it had never been submitted before. I will be interested to see if there are any bidders at all. I would be very surprised if there are any bids before the auction ends, but I could be wrong. Those who have the dosh (and the interest) in buying this sword, would not likely be so foolish as to place a bid on Mr. Tsuruta's Ebay style auction system. I would think that they would much prefer to privately negotiate a price on a piece at this level. If there a couple of interested buyers, they will likely be watching this auction closely to ensure that they don't get sniped by a last minute bid. That is unlikely to happen. Once the auction is over, as long as it hasn't sold, they would then contact Mr. Tsuruta to discuss a deal. Last year, Mr. Tsuruta had a Fukuoka Ichimonji for sale that was in the mid 4,000,000 JPY range (it might have been higher than that). No one bid on it, but it did sell within a very short time after the auction had closed. Someone was watching it, but he patiently waited until the auction was over before making a deal. Not about to be suckered into paying more than he had to. This auction system might work well for less expensive items, but otherwise it's just a clever way of bringing more attention to pieces that he has for sale and imparting a sense of urgency to the sale. Pietro

Did Darcy say something about an "acid trip"? Or is this an acid flashback? In a later post, Darcy said: It's gimei in my opinion but of course others may disagree, and you can put it all to the test by submitting it. If we can backtrack a bit: My understanding is that Johnno bought a sword which has a mei, but has no papers. Nothing. The authenticity of the mei is now in question, by the reckoning of some of the experienced members on the board. There are some preconceived notions (as Darcy said) as to who actually made and signed the sword. All speculation, so far. Karl presents confusing arguments regarding signatures, with many photographic examples of signatures. It looks like a very nice sword with no obvious flaws, and is in very bright polish. It is well understood now, that it is a very enjoyable sword. There is only one way to put this to rest, and that is to submit it to shinsa. Otherwise we might be going around in circles forever, and Johnno will never have a definitive attribution for this sword. It's great fun to entertain debate and speculation. One might hope for the best possible attribution, but that will not ultimately be decided by the NMB. Pietro

Wasn't sure where to post this, or whether to post it at all. Got these from Aoi Art (home of the "scratch-n-dent" special) last year. They are silver mekugi-nuki (mekugi hammers) with a kao supposedly by "Oni". Anyone ever seen anything like these? I suspected that there might have been a limited series of these made. Perhaps these are just two of a dozen themes, or so. One is meant to represent the Fox spirit. The other looks like something that only a biker with many tattoos (a Harley rider) would admire. Difficult to photograph. Pietro P.S. Not that there is anything wrong with tattoos or Harleys (or bikers).

Arnold, you are romanticizing. Look back to my last post where I said, "Won't be quite so romantic then." The real question should have been: If you had $55,000 burning a hole in your pocket, would you buy this sword? But most of you do not have $55,000 to throw away, so the point is moot. Like I said before: One or two small kiri komi on the mune might be seen to be a mark of pride, and good for conversation. A gaping hole on the ha, I'm not so sure. For arguments sake. What if it had two such holes in the ha (another one further up on the ha)? Would you still be interested (at that price)? Pietro

Yep! I would refuse it, and never second guess my decision. Too many swords for sale. The fewer flaws, or whatever, the better. You go ahead and buy this one, if it really appeals to you. It is easy to be sucked in by a few words displayed on a web page. Oh, it's rare and special (and was involved in a great battle). Try and sell it later. See what you can get for it with that big hangnail. Won't be quite so romantic then. Pietro P.S. You can't take the price out of it, because that is a stupid thing to propose. Nothing comes free.

You were not "hammered", Jim. You just had higher hopes for this thing than it deserved. Some of the first responders in this thread tried to let you down quite gently and nicely. That "sign your post" thing, is kind of like a last kick in the pants (ass) on your way out the door. It's kind of like a right of initiation on this forum, and never grows tired of itself. Pietro

No, I don't think that I would buy it. So many nice Juyo swords available. So little time and money. Why should this particular sword be so very desirable? Okay: This is a signed Juyo sword from a relatively obscure smith, and supposedly relatively rare. It's long and it is signed. But it's not on the radar for most collectors, I would think. Must stay focused regarding what to collect. If you want rare, better to buy something from a rare sought after smith. In his write-up, he says: it is not clear to which lineage he belongs Further, he says: As a whole, they are inferior to Kanemitsu in skill and nie is more emphasized. So, why is it so special? A small kiri komi on the mune is a nice thing to have, and to perhaps brag about. A missing tooth on the cutting edge would not appeal to me. But to each to his own. As Brian said, no way to know for sure if it was done in battle. How do we know that it wasn't from some misadventure that occurred long after this sword was in service. Maybe when swords were being confiscated during the second world war? Who knows. If this sword were being offered on Aoi Art's website for $55,000 US, would you be fawning over it? Pietro

Just a stupid guess: Ishiguro, Masatsune Pietro

What regulation? What are we to infer from the opening post? Did the client, or the guy intending to ship it back to him, know what he was doing? Can't ship swords from Japan to Canada now, either by Fedex or EMS? Antique sword or newer sword? Can you still ship a sword from Japan to the U.S. using EMS or Fedex? Is this business no longer sustainable then? Shipping swords out of Japan for resale. Should we forget having to send swords back to Japan for polish or shinsa, fearing having to jump through hoops to get them shipped back? Or having to wait a relative eternity while they are shipped back by a cargo ship, only to arrive many weeks later somewhat rusty from exposure to salt air. Pietro

Who said that it was a Honami Koson sayagaki? Pietro

I recognise that there was a lot of B.S. in my last post. Trying too hard to be funny and controversial, but failed miserably. Tanto54, your first analogy was not really all that ridiculous. I understood the point you were trying to make. It ties in with what Darcy said about the unthinkable for a Japanese sword dealer: Selling a special sword to a "doofus", however much money he has. Please do not worry. My swords are very special to me, and they are very well cared for. They will be passed on to the next owner, or my surviving family, in the same condition in which they were received (or better). As soon as I said that the sword has no soul, I knew that there might be disagreement. I agree with what Jean said. At least half of the fun is in the pursuit of a particular item, and in the anticipation of receiving it. Sad that he said the pleasure of owning it eventually fades a way. But, that's just the way it is perhaps. Eight of Darcy's ten keys to "getting a good relationship" began with the mantra: don't waste time. Isn't the process of acquiring fine nihonto (and deciding what to buy), by necessity, a time intensive and laborious pursuit? For most of us, anyway. Unless your budget is not limited. Shouldn't even the snobbiest dealer in Japan be prepared to show a little bit of patience with his customers? Pietro

Yep, it was intended to be a silly joke. Selling a Tokuju sword on eBay for a net loss? I thought it was funny. What got me going were the simple comments made by Pete and Curran earlier on in this thread. Pete said: Yup, money alone doesn't do it. Yah gotta prove your intention. Well, sure. But to prove your intention, you have to have some money in your pocket. That is my contention. Curran said (somewhat reflexively): When you get into the vault level Toku Juyo and beyond, then you better have a proven track record of knowledge, appreciation, commitment, and conviction (to be a buyer). A rather generic reply, perhaps not borne out of a genuine experience, I thought. Again, commitment and conviction relies entirely upon having the money to spend. Tanto 54 (George): The sword-daughter analogy is ridiculous. If I had any daughters, I certainly would not prize even the rarest sword as greatly. Once you have sold a previously loved sword, does it really matter what happens to it? Unless you are hoping to buy it back in the future. You can't protect everything, and the cold sword does not have a soul (some may want to disagree). Daughters and sons do have souls, and carry your genes. Guido: I love your sense of humour. I have two old Japanese crowbars. Both of them are Juyo Token chunks of well hammered steel. Quick! Someone note down what he said about not being "too hard on newbies who are just starting", before he has a change of heart and edits his post. Pietro

Yeh, I did mean Paul (not Curran) regarding the protecting investment statement. Okay. Here is the challenge, Curran. Everyone on this board contributes a bit towards a ridiculously large pool of money. You provide us with the names of those two shops in Japan who are holding back, just because they don't really value money all that much. They would much prefer that their best swords find a nice Japanese "forever home". Sorry, that's an irritating term that the doggy breeders use frequently. I'll take the pile of cash to Japan with me (flying first class, of course), and walk into both of these shops. I'll slap the great wad of cash down on the counter and say, "show me your best sword". When I get home, after I have spent any remaining dollars on Sake and escorts, we'll submit the sword to an impartial expert and see what he says. The sword will then be sold for a net loss on eBay, and every member will receive a small portion of his original contribution back as a token of gratitude. Pietro

I hope no one was offended by my post. No, Jamie, I have not attended a DTI. I am relatively new to collecting, and I have not had the time to attend one of these shows. I do not doubt that some dealers may be selective about what they show to prospective customers, based upon hierarchy. Curran said, "I think they are just trying to protect their investment." That is entirely understandable. If a gaijin on holiday walks into a fine shop in Tokyo hoping to just have an ogle at one of their best swords, why should they produce it? Unless they get the sense that he's truly looking to buy. Every time you unsheathe or sheathe a sword, you risk producing fine scratches and burnishing marks. Not to mention that if the customer is not careful, the sword may be marred. I think that if your intention is to buy, and you have the money, then why wouldn't they show the best items to you? If you are just "looking", then forget it. Pietro

I think you guys are making stuff up: "Prove your intention"? "Vault level Tokuju"? "Proven track record"? You know what it is? The smell of money. Dealers of any high end commodity (particularly artwork) can smell from a mile away whether your wallet is packed full of money, or not. I would be willing to bet that if you walked confidently into any shop in Tokyo with the determination to procure a high end sword, then you would be welcomed to view anything they had for sale. Granted there might be some old guys who would rather see a foreigner get lost, but I suspect they are few these days. It's like when someone walks into a Porsche or Mercedes dealership out of curiosity. They know if your just dreaming. Your approach, your posture, and somewhat apologetic demeanour. "I just wanted to have a look." I worked in a motorcycle dealership, before I got my post-secondary education. They used to call the undecided time-wasters "nose-pickers". But you guys are right about the intention and conviction part. I pick my nose a lot too. But then there is a corollary to that: Sometimes a well intentioned prospective buyer presents himself in dirty jeans and torn t-shirt, and is dismissed as a bum. The dealer never realizes any better, and loses prospective client. Respect for custom is another issue altogether. Pietro

Perhaps better than being one of those old guys who says, "I still have one of those, but can't sell it for anything like what I paid for it originally". Peter

I'd think twice before bidding on this sword. If you want a Juyo Naoe Shizu for a very reasonable price, then go ahead. The supposed provenance, and reference to Masamune, is for naught. This is nothing more than salesmanship on Tsuruta san's part. Whether it is based upon the origami that accompanies the sword, or some information that was passed down to Mr. Tsuruta from the previous owner. As Dirk pointed out, the papers supposedly signed by Honami Koson are fake. They are worthless, and any good knowledgeable dealer in Japan would immediately recognise them as such. Mr. Tsuruta knows his market. The price of the sword equates to about $20,500 USD. Mr. Tsuruta collects 20% for commission. That would leave the consignor with about $16,400. Either the consignor is very desperate for immediate cash, or there is something not quite right with this sword. If the former is true, then you might have a nice Naoe Shizu for a good price. But, I would not buy into that business about the previous Masamune attribution. Markus is right. Jean perhaps gives Mr. Tsuruta too much credit? Peter

Ray, it strikes me that you are very open-minded. Guys, I had no idea that the irregularities in the steel next to the yokote in my first photo might represent "core steel" or "shintetsu" or whatever. All I had in mind was to show the somewhat ugly irregularities that were revealed in this macro photo adjacent the yokote. Brian, the photos are of the same kissaki. The second photo, however, is of the obverse side of the sword. That was my mistake. Hard to compare opposite sides. These photos were taken well over a year ago. Here is a photo of the same side as the first photo: It also never occurred to me that the angle of the yokote looked odd, until it was pointed out. I think that it may be due to lens barrel distortion and the angle that the photo was taken from (not perpendicular to the blade). Note that in this original un-cropped photo, the yokote is near the periphery of the lens. Plus it was very close-up. I will try to take some more photos in the next few days. That not only demonstrate the macro details, but also confirm the true orientation of the yokote.

It's a macro photo with flash, dude! Every little piece of dust and fine scratches light up like a Christmas tree. That is exactly the point I was trying to make! The yokote is not at an odd angle. Remember that the first photo is taken with a macro lens and cropped. Perspective and distortion. Nothing wrong with the yokote angle. This was likely polished decades ago by a high rank polisher. It's expected that it should have a few fine scratches, no matter how well cared for. It got it's Juyo papers fairly recently, in spite of the fine scratches. Not all is as it seems, SAS. Peter

Sorry guys. This was intended to be a pun and a play on words. It was rather unfair of me, and somewhat deceitful. There was a movie titled: Coyote Ugly. Here's the urban dictionary reference to the meaning of "coyote ugly": http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coyote+ugly I wanted to demonstrate that close-up, clinical photos of blades (with harsh lighting or flash) can reveal details that are perhaps not so comely. This is a Kamakura Juyo Token (NBTHK) blade which is in good polish. April fools perhaps? Peter