Ford Hallam

You'd need to ask the Japanese authorities on what basis they date these Muromachi period pieces, and the brass inlay work also? I cant find any reliable evidence offered for these claims. You don't "believe" shinchu production was too laborious.....well in fact it was quite a technological feat to isolate zinc and thereafter to produce consistent brass alloy. Japan only discovered it had zinc at the very end of the 19th cent. so was reliant on imports of metallic zinc from China to make brass.

From early Chinese texts we can say for certain that brass, when first manufactured, was regarded very highly and as a fair substitute for gold, ranking just below the real thing. As such it was kept in a highly polished state. It would appear that, so called, Onin guards are merely old tosho tsuba that were 'pimped' with the fancy new and fashionable brass alloy. The evidence is increasingly pointing to an early 17th century (early 1600's) introduction of brass to Japan.

David, sorry to burst your bubble ( I didn't sleep well...) your tsuba like object displays almost no 'workmanship', just like a poster of the Mona Lisa has no brush-marks. Let it go, you unwittingly bought a stamped fake, the die wasn't even all that accurate in terms of it pretending to be a tsuba in the first place. And attempting to create some sort of hierarchy among a number of exact stamping is a bit like grading faeces.

Unlikely, what we're most probably looking at is silver sulphide. It has a tendency to 'grow' beyond the immediate edge of the actual underlying silver that it is consuming.

The dragon does look to be in silver, but blackened silver finishes, which are produced by using sulphur, were evidently not an aspect of metal finishing used in the past. And as Steven suggested, don't do any cleaning if you intend to have a professional deal with it because a microscopic examination before intervening allows for a more detailed and subtle understanding of the piece and what it might have been intended to look like. DIY cleaning tends to destroy a wealth of valuable evidence.

Karasu tengu training the young Yoshitsune perhaps

Thanks all, for your kind and generous words. It genuinely is a pleasure for me to be able to share what I live. I am a bit obsessive so it's handy to have an understanding support group here... Hi, I'm Ford and I'm a tosogaholic.

Thank you Peter, that was generous of you to say. It's beautiful subject and I'm sure it can bring the best out in all of us. I know I have had my moments here too, in the now distant past , but Brian tolerated me long enough for me to learn to be more gentle on-line.

You're hilarious Alex, you obviously don't have any real experience of metalwork technique yet you're still trying to defend your position, which was simply not accurate to begin with. It's exactly this sort of tiresome misunderstanding about technique that leads people to somehow think they understand the subject yet merely makes them more vulnerable to being deceived by fakers. It's rare day off for me so I had a couple minutes to spend here and I find myself wasting energy trying to keep the details of metalwork technology clear here and having to play ego ping pong with you. Bye Bye, Alex.

Hmmm, I'll chisel any mei you like for £30 but I reckon there are others who will be cheaper. If adding a suitable one allows the seller to get a few 100 quid for a tsuba that makes pretty good sense, don't you think.

Alex, my partner regularly has jewellery work she produces laser engraved and our hallmarks are routinely lasered but I very much doubt these signature we done that way. More likely simply clever chiselling.

both stamped Brian, and almost certainly a few more out there. I think the apparent difference may simply be that David's tsuba is a better image. But you'll notice some flat areas on the high spots too, the left claw and flames etc. That's where the die didn't quite press down far enough to leave a full impression. That's why it's pretty level and flat, not rounded over as would be the case if it was wear from age and handling.

I'm not posting to inflame passions further but there is a specific detail I'd like to point out so that those who care to learn and 'with eyes to see' might be better armed in future encounters with pieces like the under discussion. Referring to the handy images Henry composited for us, Thanks Henry (see...I'm happy to offer my gratitude ) I think most of us are in agreement that the tsuba was created by means of stamping. Just as with coins, this process is designed to produce a raised impression that requires no further finishing of the metal surface. Colouring and plating.are obviously optional extras. The most obvious clue that this tsuba was stamped is the background texture/finish. When the die was carved they created a sort of indented texture all over the surface of the die on the area that would be the deepest on the stamped item. It might have been simple hammer and punch work or even perhaps little divots carved out. Judging from the way some of the dimples are arranged in rows and sort of overlap each other I'd suggest a punched texture. This indented texture will naturally produce a reverse impression, what we see here, an odd lumpy texture. And one that would be very time consuming and tricky to carve, not to mention that it's an effect we never see on genuine antique pieces. While we might have to concede that whoever carved the die is fairly skilful but as the die was made to deliberately deceive the resulting piece loses any artistic merit or validity. An honest reproduction poster of the Mona Lisa can claim more artistic credibility in that respect. As to any craft value inherent in the stamped tsuba-like-object, I'd suggest it would be on a par with any cheap holiday curio trinket. There is, of course a huge discussion to be had surrounding faking and forgery, and artistic merit etc. but having it here would be a futile exercise. There are a number of excellent books that explore the matter, written by real art experts and philosophers, one of the best, imo, is a collection of essays presenting many viewpoints from a number of specialists. The Forger's Art: Forgery and the Philosophy of Art. edited by Denis Dutton. I'd also recommend his, The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution.

Might I suggest that commercial interests refrain from posting images and links to items they're currently, or have previously, offered for sale? I find that commercial interests invariably muddy the waters of pure academic research and study.

bye bye David.

I wholeheartedly agree with the consensus of comments regarding the clear similarities. It's a copy, and lacks real artistic and craft merit. And I also agree with Henry's and other's observation regarding civility here. This is forum for the discussion and study of a subject we all enjoy. It you insist on acting like an arrogant or uppity twit you'll soon find your conversations somewhat limited. My own response to snarky or rude posts is to simply block seeing that persons post in the future. It makes for a much more enjoyable visit here. And frankly, if someone can't even make a little effort to behave in a considerate way then I'm buggered if I'll waste a moment trying to help or otherwise enlighten their mean spirited little lives. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote; "...no good comes from rude people"

The seppa dai shape strongly suggests a post 1876 manufacture. What I mean is whoever made this was not at all familiar with functional tsuba or the classical assembly of tosogu in a koshirae.

I may use this as may new promotional tag line for tsuba lovers

Just seen that Ian has beat me too it with the same conclusion. I would just add that the second one is, in my option, not iron, but probably brass.

To my eyes the original tsuba on this thread is not a casting. It's brass, or shinchu if you want to impress... I see no reason to suggest that it's anything other than a genuine piece of metal carving. The second piece, on the other hand, is to my eyes, a cast copy. The patina is an awful modern instant thing, out of a bottle.

As a professional craftsman in this tradition and restorer of the same I've never used this stuff but from what I can see it looks worth looking in to. My only concern would be the presence of sulphur, but from the look of the safety data is seems not to be an issue. As far as concerns about things being too clean I'd point out that the oxidised wax and green film that was removed from these menuki was in fact a corrosion product. That's to say the wax has broken down and was slowly attacking the copper substrate. I've written about this issue and traditional ibota wax elsewhere on this forum, perhaps it can be found by searching for 'copper soaps'.

I've actually analysed many Edo pieces and menuki are almost never pure gold in my experience. Very minor traces of copper, 1 or 2 percent, and silver, up to 50%, are usually alloyed in. Where they do look more rich in colour they may still contain a significant amount of gold because it was usual the leach any non gold alloy metal out of the surface to create a surface of pure gold.

While I agree that the mei and kao look legit I am very disappointed in the workmanship displayed in the decoration. Those birds look to be very generic and crude. The bamboo is also a bit lifeless and 'heavy' to my eyes.

Occam's razor perhaps suggests the simplest answer...

In my opinion these look suspiciously contemporary, possibly mainland China. The work is very unorthodox and the nanako is pretty ropey. A relatively skilful maker but not one well versed in the classical Japanese tosogu tradition. A know of a few such makers.