three ko-kinko tsuba from one workshop?

I guess such things do not happen very often...

Imagine - I buy a papered ko-kinko tsuba from one of the NMB members. Some time passes and... lo and behold! There is a nearly identical tsuba on eBay (yes, I confess, I visit that evil place in search of some underestimated kodogu). I buy it. After a week, I post my first tsuba in a thread concerning sanmai tsuba and their quality, and an NMB member points out that there is a third tsuba (nearly identical with mine) on Yahoo Japan auctions. I use one of the NMB members' bidding service (thanks, Yasuhiro-san!) and I win the third tsuba (which is being sold as a... ko-kinko).

I now have the first two tsuba. They are like twins, but seppa dai are of differenet size (the size of the tsuba is identical) and details are slightly different.

I am currently waiting for the 3rd tsuba. I will post pics of the first two for now give me some time, please). I hope this thread will help us all learn something - when was the last time you had 3 tsuba with identical size and motif on your hands?

I shall post pics soon

Late Edo tsuba: three relatively matching, is not uncommon.

Three near matching 'ko-kinko'... very rare.

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My experience over the years is that I see a design I like and see a near twin maybe a few months later. I decide that I like it and will buy the next one I see. Then I never see another....

There is an Ono tsuba design of mushrooms.... I saw 3 in 8 months. I tried to grab the 3rd one, but someone bought it before me. I am waiting 4 or 5 years to see another of these. Also, the same with a certain ko-akasaka design. Years ago saw one on a website, another at a show, and a third in a book. Never seen another.... tried to buy the one at the show...but it was expensive and by the time I came back with the cash... it was gone.

Curran

it´s somehow funny for myself so to read your´s post here...

Me myself,in past-did have somehow the same "couriosity" like you.

Mine was the Kubi Tsunagi Yagyu one.

I bought me the "first" for around 2000.-DM those times;saw an second one not one month later in an Christie´s auction(it sold around 2000 Pounds Ex.Add.)(this one but,i did miss due lack of funds!)and just two or three months later...-i saw an third one(attributed to Shoami(?-still wonder who did that Origami?)(which of course was wrong)(as it again was clearly an Yagyu/what else?)offered by an Jap.Seller(-it was gone(secured as we say) within 5 days!-so no chance for me here)...

Sorrowly(and case of indoctrinated youth those times-i did sell Nr.1 to an German Collector-where it still is stored todays...)(No way so to accumulate it back..)

Of course...LOL!

Never saw an next one...(still on the Hunt..)

3 times an VERY similar/identical Yagyu within an half year....

Laugh!

Such things happen..DO happen....

Christian

Christian,

There is the old old_old saying that things "happen in 3s". To my surprise, this also happens with tsuba.

Maybe Mariuszk never sees another of these? He has pulled off a "hat trick" (3 goals in one game).

I will continue looking for my particular Ono mushroom design tsuba. I call it the Porcini tsuba.

OK, gents,

here come the first "quick and dirty" pictures of the two tsuba in my possession. The third will follow in a few weeks, I am afraid.

A friend has brought forward a theory whereby my tsuba might be cast from the same mold:

"This is actually not surprising. I know of a specific little tsuba design that was cast and mass produced. You could even tell which way was up in the mold due to very clear air bubble cavities as the liquid metal degassed (...) I have held totally identical tsuba of this type. I'm sure it was not the only type to have been cast enmasse."

Well, while this sounds plausible, it does not seem to apply to my tsuba. Have a look at the pics and judge for yourself...

I have also added pics of the third tsuba, which I am to receive later. I have bought it on Yahoo Japan with the help of Yasuhiro-san from Menukiya.

If you need high resolution pictures, let me know, I will send them via email (only the first two tsuba)

Some 30 or more years ago I had a small copper tsuba with some kind of animal on it. The animal was identical to the one on these tsuba. I had no idea what it was, or indeed how old the tsuba was. I sent a photograph of it to Bob Haynes with my description of the animal as "an over-endowed rabbit"!! Bob replied that it was a fox. And so all these years later I see the animal again. Bob's letter and photographs of the tsuba (I sold or traded it off long ago) are deeply buried in my archive and not presently available, but I'll surely remember this thread whenever I find them again. I seem to recall Bob saying he thought my tsuba was ca1400. Again, I note that my tsuba was round with a rim and so quite different from those presented here, but I have no doubt the fox was EXACTLY the same.

Regards,

BaZZa.

Wow! Now, this is getting positively interesting!

Thanks, BaZZa!

The first two I think are by the same hand. Different though. Waves are longer on one than on other. Some other differences. I don't think cast.

The third is rather different. Wave crests positive out of the plate rather than into it. Also, some much more different waves.

It is difficult to tell how similar the fox is on each. I see differences, but am not sure they are simply not wear on the fox.

Having seen 'fox' menuki on a few occasions, I too believe this may be a fox.

Is the fox inset onto or into the plate, or is it carved as part of the plate?

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The fox being a messenger of Inari, is it too far a logic jump to wonder if these tsuba might denote messengers or messenger status?

See this on the man's hip, and know right away his role / status.

That is just a thought question.

I reckon it's a squirrel, risu, in Japanese.

Squirrel was my first thought, but I came to question it.

Are squirrels indigenous to Japan or were they introduced later, like corn and many other things?

Though it looks like a squirrel to my eyes, I have seen earlier rendering of foxes in Korean paintings and earlier Japanese metalwork that look more like Squirrels.

The Korean Gumio (Gumiho, or 9 tailed fox) often looks like a friggin squirrel to my eyes. I don't know if the Japanese also have the Gumio / Gumiho in their mythology?

Guido or any other Japan guru know?

Curran!

i´ll have an look for your´s "Porcini"-LOL!(quite an extravagant but correct expression(,-)!)

As usually-just an matter of time,passion and of course(:-)correct timing...

Mariusz!

THIS,is very certainly an "Killshot"!(Mine very honest congratulations!)

Welcome in the "old school"!-LOL!

:D !

Chris

I think sguirrel .It looks more like a mice/rat than a dog.

Fox looks more like a dog.

The Korean Gumio (Gumiho, or 9 tailed fox) often looks like a friggin squirrel to my eyes. I don't know if the Japanese also have the Gumio / Gumiho in their mythology?

Guido or any other Japan guru know?

Wikipedia anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-tailed_fox

Chris,

If I find another example of the Porcini tsuba, you will laugh. I am sure they are meant to be another type of mushroom, but the design looks like an Italian contadini's dream.

Marius,

To see it as a squirrel makes more sense, but I have seen too many very old paintings where the rendering of a 'fox' looks too much like a squirrel. I don't have an answer. Maybe Ford is right and "Occam's Razor" = it is a squirrel. But BaZZa <-> Robert Haynes are right about confusion with this possibly being a fox or even a nine-tailed fox.

I don't have the answer. I don't know enough Japanese mythology or legends to understand it. Hence why I call for Guido or someone like Morita-san to give an opinion.

The only other thing to note is that the animal or 9 tailed fox is over water. Maybe this is just the design, or maybe it refers to a legend. Per the 9 tailed fox wikipedia reference;

"In 1113, a samurai called Sakabe Yukitsuna (坂部行綱) with no children picked up an abandoned baby girl Mizukume (藻女, girl of algae) which was actually the nine-tailed fox transformed, and raised her for 17 years. At the age of 18 she changed her name to Tamamo-no-Mae". Girl of algae? Was she plucked from the sea like sea-weed? Or from the sea shore? Does this design refer to this?

Or maybe it is just a tsuba design of a squirrel on the sea.

Marius

Not sure I'd agree this was all the work of one maker but I do agree they are all beautiful. Number one has to be the best with no rabbit. I say rabbit because the background is clearly ocean waves. Very famous that rabbit of Izumo, and that's who I think this is.

Lovely tsuba, not the usual stuff, thank you for sharing,

-t

Thomas,

the tail of a rabbit is short. I go with Ford and all those who say it is a squirrel. Anyway, it seems that all three tsuba come from the same workshop. As a friend has told me "I think its the same shop -- the Muroamchi IKEA of sword furniture!"

Two questions remain:

1. What is that squirrel doing over the waves?

2. Are those pegs in the seppa-dai designed to hold the three plates in place?

Marius

Not sure I'd agree this was all the work of one maker but I do agree they are all beautiful. Number one has to be the best with no rabbit. I say rabbit because the background is clearly ocean waves. Very famous that rabbit of Izumo, and that's who I think this is.

-t

Tom, yes??? I thought you were kidding, so I put [ rabbit izumo ] into google and got a surprise. Here is an interesting blog:

http://fulbrightika.blogspot.com.au/201 ... tures.html

with lots of good info about Izumo, but here is the salient paragraph:

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Ookuninushi-no-mikoto (who, by the way, has about a bazillion names) had eighty brothers,* and all his brothers decided to go to woo an extremely beautiful women. They made Ookuninushi-no-mikoto carry their bags, because they were great brothers.

Anyway, as they were walking along, they came across a rabbit with no fur. They told the rabbit that it should go bathe in salt water and then lie on top of a mountain and let the wind blow on it.

Needless to say, the rabbit found this experience incredibly painful, and by the time Ookuninushi-no-mikoto showed up, it was crying in pain. It turned out that the reason the rabbit had no fur was because it had deceived a crocodile** into forming a bridge from another island to the mainland, by telling him that they should have a contest to see who had more relatives (and the rabbit would count the crocodile's relatives by hopping across the tops of their heads to the mainland). The crocodile realized the deception right before the rabbit made it to land and skinned the rabbit.

Anyway, Ookuninushi-no-mikoto told the rabbit to wash in the river and then roll in a special kind of pollen. When the rabbit did this, its skin and fur was healed. The rabbit thanked Ookuninushi-no-mikoto and told him that he would be the one to gain the incredibly beautiful woman all his brothers were going to woo.

When Ookuninushi-no-mikoto showed up with his brother's bags, the incredibly beautiful woman (who may or may not have been a princess) said, "Actually I am going to marry Ookuninushi-no-mikoto," which, needless to say, ticked off his brothers and they killed him twice, but that's another story entirely.

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So I look to have been right when I called the animal on my long ago tsuba "a well-endowed rabbit"!!!

Bestests,

BaZZa.

Mariusz(:-)

so to answer you on your´s question Nr.1 here:

This is quite very easy!

Do you remember Ice Age?

Laugh!

Chris

Squirrels were not a common animal in Japan, considered as exotic until the Momoyama period (AD 1573-1615). The motif of squirrel was oftentimes portrayed in combination with grapes on special laquerware to be exported to the European countries ('南蛮漆器') during the 17th century. The motif of squirrel has been gradually accepted by the Japanese people, and 'Squirrel and grapes' has eventually become one of the typical animal & plant motifs along with 'tiger and bamboo ('竹と虎')' and 'deer with maple leaves('鹿と楓')'.

So if Squirrels are paired with grapes and grapes are 'budo' in Japanese and that's a homonym for the Japanese word for 'martial way' it's appearance on a tsuba is obvious. ...if you ignore all the flaws in that line of reasoning

Is the fox inset onto or into the plate, or is it carved as part of the plate?

The squirrel-fox-(endowed)rabbit seems to have been cast separately and soldered into the plate. On the two tsuba in my collection the animals are virtually identical.

The rivets in the seppa-dai area are almost certainly there to secure the 3 plates together and by the look of them I'd say they were part of the original assembly process.

The applied 'creature' was probably made in the same way as a menuki would have been made.; ie; worked up from a flat sheet of metal.

I think we can reasonably eliminate rabbit because they have long ears and a short tail and this creature has a long bushy tail and short ears. :D

These 3 tsuba are remarkably similar so I think it reasonable to suggest they did in fact originate in the same workshop. What is clear, though, is that the decorative plates with the wave design is slightly different each time, which suggests they were individually engraved/carved.

Ford,

Thanks :-) I think this is a very good wrap up. And I guess we have thus arrived at the end of our thread (unless someone is able to explain what a squirrel is doing over the waves, that is, LOL).

Thanks, gentlemen, for your opinions. I hope you have enjoyed the tsuba :-)

unless it's a bushy tailed fox :D

now that is just evil.

~Dr. Evil looks over the control panel to determine which chair you are in and to find the right button.

he he

OK, how about our favourite shape-shifter - the tanuki?

Could be...although depictions of Tanuki in Japanese art do tend to emphasise features other than a bushy tail

Ford -

I am surprised you didn't know that the bushy tailed half fox, half squirrel like creature we see depicted with grapes is actually a dormouse. The association is not one with martial arts but rather comes from Chinese iconography. The little dormouse gets drunk on fermented grapes and falls happily asleep on the vine. A symbol for drinkers and a contented life...

-t

Hi Thomas,

yes, I know the rabbit doesn't really have anything to do with the martial arts, I was just being a bit silly

I had come across the dormouse description, it does make more sense when we consider the size of the creatures when compared to the grapes they are typically depicted on. :D I think I rather like the symbology too

About the dormouse; there was a big debate about this in our club last year and I was then pointed to an even bigger brouhaha in the world of netsuke over the same thing. Otherwise I would be ignorant of the whole story.

@Ford - please appreciate that I rarely take myself seriously I thank you for not taking offense at my silliness...

and everybody please call me tom or Toryu, "Thomas" is an English Muffin!

-t