gtstcactus Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi, I've just aquired this wakizashi recently.... It's not "perfect" but I thought it's not to bad.... It came in shirasaya with a perfect fitting habaki. It's ubu, sori 1.4cm, nagasa 44.5cm The mei reads: Bishu osafune junin Norimitsu I'm not sure which norimitsu this is.... or if the mei is gimei. Any help there appreciated! Photos next: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 more photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 few more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 last ones... The blade does look a little better in person, some of the detail is simply not shown in the photos..... And no I do not have the license / registration.... it was surrendered before leaving Japan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Jason, It is written Osafune (for the school)... Anyway, if the mei is legit, it should be before sue Bizen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 It would appear you acquired this from a seller in Japan- didn't you make these sort of inquiries before purchase? Buying blindly is the shortest distance to the burn ward....Any dealer worth buying from should be able to answer these kinds of questions before buying....and you need to be asking them if you are at all concerned about obtaining things of quality and value. And please don't take this the wrong way but if you do not know Bizen Osafune Norimitsu is part of the Osafune school of the Bizen tradition you really need to spend more time with some books as this is like asking "who is buried in Grant's tomb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Chris, I'm not going to take this the wrong way.... Sometimes I feel you jump down my throat a little harshly tho.... It's my fault I should have worded myself better. I did ask questions of the dealer, (I suspect he's a european living in Japan as a dealer) I asked about how he concluded it to be an edo period sword, he said he thought it older but cautiously stated edo period. I asked on here prior to purchasing about the norimitsu, only to be told none of the norimitsu smiths in bizen osafune signed the way this one did. I also thought osafune was a town which perhaps had more than one sword school. I was well aware he was from Bizen, osafune. I just misunderstood that bizen osafune is only a school not a town with more than one school. So now I know my Norimitsu is from Osafune School in Bizen, could anyone possibly tell me which Norimitsu??? (chris I think in another thread told me no norimitsu on record signed this way) Chris, I did not buy this blindly..... I simply had a minor misunderstanding (aren't us newbies allowed a mistake or 2?) I liked the blade, the sori, the hamon. There is much in this blade I can study, I will benefit from it very much! have I done myself a dis-service with this sword? Is it a shocker best sent to the scrap heap?? It is certainly an improvement for me.... And if I keep improving with each new aquisition I'll keep learning..... Jas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 It always helps to provide as much background as possible so us older, ornery types don't go off on a rant! It is good to hear that you asked questions....I am not sure how you found this dealer and what his reputation may be, but I would highly recommend getting referrals from satisfied customers as there are many unscrupulous sword dealers everywhere.... Norimitsu is a big name which makes fakes common. There were also many generations, which adds to the difficulty. Work of the later generations is of a much lower rank and hasn't thus commanded the research of the earlier generations. Because there does not seem to be any recorded signatures that match yours, it makes it highly suspicious. It may very well be a fake. Or it may be an unrecorded signature of some late generation. Either way, what do you really have? To me, with the forging flaws present, and the suguba, I would tend to think there is a good chance that this is of the mass produced kazuuchi mono family. I am not saying it is junk, and there is perhaps something to be learned here, but I would be a bit more cautious in the future.... And, yes, Osafune is both a city and the name of a branch of the Bizen tradition of sword making. Bizen is the name of the province where Osafune is located and one of the 5 traditional schools of swordmaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Jean has told me there is something very wrong with this sword and referred me to pictures norimitsu2 and norimitsu14. something to do with the "lines" or the polishers signature as he put it. I'm waiting for Jean to PM me about it but really want to know whats wrong so I'm asking here as it's relevant to the thread.... So can anyone fill me in? Jean says the lines should run \\ to the shinogi I think, but they instead are more inline with shinogi but tapering off... Surely this can't be too major????!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzo Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 4 topics for the same sword makes difficult to have the whole image .. one here for the sword, the second here for the mei, and the third here for the shirasaya. Here is the question about what Jean says: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10590 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I agree, Lorenzo; all of us should try to keep one sword in one thread. Jason, picture Norimitsu2 shows well what I just posted about on another of your threads: the shinogi and mune aren't parallel to each other here. For whatever reason the polisher or polishers have decreased the width of the shinogi-ji, the shinogi has been moved towards the mune above the nakago. This isn't natural; you/we need to discover why this has been done. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sorry about the multiple threads...... I'll blame it on my ADHD.... (and Jean cos he started one!) I would very much like to discover why the polisher or polishers have decreased the width of the shinogi-ji, the shinogi has been moved towards the mune above the nakago, if this is the case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hi Jason, Laziness is the one reason I can think of. Perhaps there was a big chip out of the edge and the polisher moved the edge back to make the chip disappear and didn't bother to polish down the shinogi-ji at the same time to preserve the proper geometry. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Hi, What about a very bad polisher ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Grey, do you mean the mune when you say the edge? It does look like a chip may have been made in the mune (as shown in the machimune pic in the other thread) and has been filed down, now all that is shown is the "crack / line" that chris mentioned in the other thread but it really looks like a chip now you mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reinhard Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I am not saying it is junk, and there is perhaps something to be learned here Well, I am. It is just a piece of junk and not worth discussing. BTW No reputable polisher will sign his work like this: reinhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, I am. It is just a piece of junk and not worth discussing. BTW No reputable polisher will sign his work like this: reinhard See, there is indeed something to be learned here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hi Jason, I meant the edge, not the mune, when I said the edge. If a large chip is polished off the edge and the angles between the edge and shinogi are to be preserved, then either the shinogi-ji has to be polished as much as the rest of the blade or the shinogi will be pushed back away from the edge. But, I'm afraid you're beating a dead horse. All the signs point to a seriously compromised blade. You should be looking for better swords to study. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I will see what James Jordan says about it, he's probably one of the most knowledgeable people I'm in contact with in NZ. I'll try and get an in hand evaluation. I still don't think the nakago is welded on, I've had a couple of people who work with metal look at it and both agree it is does not appear welded, admittedly they are not nihonto experts but they are knowledgeable about metal work. Could this have been a decent blade blade done a dis-service by a less than brilliant polisher? (bearing in mind only an in hand examination is going to resolve the welded or not nakago.) Despite this portion of the blade being under question there are plenty of other good bits on the sword for me to study. The hada, hamon, boshi and other bits and bobs I can't think of the correct terms for at the moment, none of which photographed very well.... Thanks for opinions and comments so far.... especially reinhards, that really added to the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well Jason, if it didn't cost you very much then ok. When you have learned enough to realise that this is a low quality piece, probably gimei, you could probably flog it off on ebay(no reserve). Whatever you decide, just don't spend any more money on it. If you have the conisseurs book, you can look at the features of the sword and maybe make up your own mind on what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 David, I said right from the start I know it's not a real high quality piece..... but it's not as bad as the photos make people think... If and when I sell it I will double if not triple my money, much like the 1st wakizashi I purchased (satsuma rebellion) which was rubbished here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Then sell it, make your profit and use the money to come to the Sydney show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 As I mentioned in the other thread, I've had it looked at by the person whom I was refered to for opinions on my second wakizashi. He says the nakago is not welded and the suggestion is way off, also said "the polisher has not wanted to move the shinogi down to follow the contour of the nakago and this is just poor workmanship rather than a welded nakago" He also thinks the mei is probably not gimei, but a later period work.... He also happens to be coordinating getting pieces from NZ to the shinsa in Sydney and said I could certainly submit this blade in it's current state for shinsa. If he thought it would be a waste of time I think he'd have said don't bother, just like he did about regarding another blade I had him look at. I don't need to sell this to fund a trip to sydney..... There are things other than money which I have to consider, which may mean I can't make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reinhard Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jason, let me comment three of your statements: "have I done myself a dis-service with this sword? Is it a shocker best sent to the scrap heap?? It is certainly an improvement for me.... And if I keep improving with each new aquisition I'll keep learning....." Yes, you did yourself a "dis-service" as far as your learning is concerned. As was suggested before, this is most probably a kazuuchi-mono wakizashi from later Muromachi times when styles and characteristica of schools and traditions were hardly discernible anymore. The blade is full of forging defects showing as open grain. This could be the result of retempering too, but the outcome is the same: The blade has no value at all. If this kind of blade is an improvement (of whatever) for you, you will have to start at point zero again, meaning you have to learn elementary basics. Improving by buying junk will never let you make any progress. Never. And yes, it is scrap iron belonging to the heap, which brings me to your next statement: "If and when I sell it I will double if not triple my money" It seems you have made up your mind already. Your plan seems to be quite simple: Buy low-end junk from whatever sources; let the benevolent nuts from NMB do all the work; then find a victim who knows even less than you do and make a little profit until enlightening will eventually strike you. - Well, this is not the way it works. Understanding NihonTo won't come like this. "There are things other than money which I have to consider" I remember you complaining about the shipping costs of a (very good) book in another thread. - If you really don't have to consider about money, you better start with books and don't bother the board on all channels with your newly acquired junk until you have read and understood them. reinhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Please Reinhardt, stop sugar coating it and tell him what you really think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Reinhard, I'm not going to bother getting into an arguement or debate over this. I buy what I can afford, if it has some sort of appeal to me. I have no great plan to buy low end junk gather info hear and profit from it. I've only sold one sword mounted in koshirae, and one other mounted in bone as that was real junk. I have no plans to sell this norimitsu sword. I like it, and will probably send it to shinsa in sydney. I have quite a few books (not nearly enough), and am constantly aquiring more.... I don't recall complaining about shipping costs about a book but if you say I did then I probably did. Generally shipping doesn't fuss me much at all. I was told to seek opinion of a New Zealand local who is quite knowledgeable, he didn't suggest the scrap heap for it and I value his opinion far more than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reinhard Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 I was told to seek opinion of a New Zealand local who is quite knowledgeable, he didn't suggest the scrap heap for it and I value his opinion far more than yours. Since New Zealand and its locals are the place to go when you want to the know the real truth about NihonTo I suggest: You better stay there. reinhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Knowledge is power. A little knowledge is dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Since New Zealand and its locals are the place to go when you want to the know the real truth about NihonTo I suggest: You better stay there. reinhard i don't require the opinion of the nation... Just someone who members of this board recommended going to for advice.... Maybe you could leave the BS out, and just restrict your posts in this thread to constructive, useful comments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Jason. You have stated a couple of times that there is much you can learn from this sword. May I ask what you can see in this sword that leads you to think so? I'm trying to be positive here and see it from your side, so dont think of this an adversarial question. This is what I see: A utilitarian blade of low quality that has forging faults, a questionable polish and a few serious dimensional faults. It is probably also gimei. If you had asked of this board prior to acquisition, was this worth buying, you would probably have got a universal NO! So, something apart from what I see and also apart from price drew you to this sword, and I wonder what it was. Please dont be afraid to answer truthfully, No one is likely to take you to task for making errors. You are new at this and errors often have lessons embedded within them. It may be that something is to be learned not from this sword, but more from your perception of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts