fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I bought this unsigned wakizashi 2 years ago but the seller gave no information about the sword. I'd like to know a little more about it (possible age, school...). May I ask you some comments about it ? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 More pics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Also the auction pics ... They might be better than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 the crab-claw elements in the hamon (kani-tsume) point towards Sukesada of Bizen....likely late Koto... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thank you Just one more question: Are these crab claws also featured in other sword schools or is it a very distinctive feature of this school ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hello, I also think for bizen, but I would rather think to shinto Sukesada school. May I am wrong, but shinogi ji seems to be in massame. crab-claw is a specificity of bizen den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what kind of hada the shinogi-ji is made of because the grain is very tight (I don't really see a blatant pattern) and (to be honest) I've never fully understood how to distinguish between the different types of hada. In books, a drawing of hada can pretty "easily" be identified but when it comes to apply the theory to a real sword, I'm very often puzzled. I may be wrong but I think that for a same sword, the hada description can differ from one person to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 swimming against the current, will say Bungo Takada .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hi, Nakago doesn't look Bizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Must be a dissident/traitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 swimming against the current, will say Bungo Takada .... I think I understand your (or rather Bungo's) comment (albeit cryptic). I'd translate it (in this context) into "Noone's supposed to buy a sword without knowing exactly what he / she buys". If I'm correct, let me then (kindly) ask the following: If you know how to distinguish between a (chinese) fake & a genuine sword, what do you do when you stumble upon a REAL bargain ? Is it a possible catch to the rule "study then buy" ? How can someone learn nihonto only from books without ever applying what he learns "on the field" or being thaught by someone who can learn him to "see" ? That's something hardly conceivable for me. Maybe I'm alone in this case but the few books I've read on the subject, I almost forgot everything. I neither have the opportunity to attend sword shows nor subscribe to a sword club (I don't know any one in France). When I look at a sword, I look but don't necessarily see because I don't know how to kickstart the learning process. Please forget my comment if irrelevant Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Francois, I dont think Franco was commenting on your purchasing the blade. He was simply saying he had a different opinion about the origin of the sword than those already stated. i.e. he was suggesting it was Bungo Takada and not Bizen. BTW I also think he may be right! best regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 OK, I'm completely off the mark then (I feel really stupid :lol:) Anyway yesterday, I had a look to nagayama's book and Sukesada seemed to match pretty well. I'll check your suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, Chris, This nakago still doesn't look bizen it is too tapered. Has a normal shape. I wonder myself how man can attribute a name on a blade without measurements, without seeing correctly hada, hamon, nioiguchi, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 I made no attribution, simply indicated a possible avenue for exploration. Yes, the nakago is not a classic Bizen shape. Neither is the one I posted as an example. Have you ever seen a reshaped nakago? Have you ever seen atypical work by a smith or school? Dismissing a possibility without seeing details, measurements, without seeing correctly hada, hamon, nioiguchi, etc., is tantamount to making at attribution. Please tell us how you do it and we will all have an answer to your question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, Have you ever seen a reshaped nakago? Have you ever seen atypical work by a smith or school? You are quite a soothsayer, i have not such a talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Have you noticed the title of this thread? All I have done is point out possibilities, which, with the limited info available, is all anyone can do...What exactly are you adding to this discussion besides stating the obvious, i.e., it is impossible to make an attribution with any certainty from the limited information available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reinhard Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 It's nice to be the audience for once. reinhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 it is impossible to make an attribution with any certainty from the limited information available? yes, thank you Chris, the 'Bungo Takada' reply lives, "it's alive", and 'if you don't like that answer, I have others', like Fujiwara. The point being, regardless of what answer is given in these instances the questioner should be asking themselves why that response. It's nice to be the audience for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Thank you all for your comments. Sorry for taking so long to provide measures, it took me some time to find back my caliper. Here are the features of the sword: Nagasa: 42,8 cm Nakago length: 13,8 cm Motohaba: 2,5 cm Sakihaba: 1,9 cm Motokasane: 0,61 cm Sakikasane: 0,5 cm Sori: 0,7 cm Hope this can help in narrowing down to fewer schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 It's nice to be the audience for once. reinhard Heroes get tired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi all hopefully I post this right, first time posting as I found I might have something to add to a discussion after checking out the site for a while. Attached are 2 pictures of a wakizashi signed Sukesada, similar shape as the one originally posted as well as the example Chris posted. I've had it for around 15 years, has a typical Mount Fuji/Crab claw hamon, although the pattern is much more regular and less free flowing than earlier examples as Koto turned to Shinto. I believe my sword was made by one of the many Shinto Sukesada, and is probably nothing special except to me (first sword and given to me by my father) While most of the swords I saw signed or attributed to Sukesada over the years do have the typical Bizen nakago, I've come across quite a few with the other shape, but what's unusual is they most always seem to be wakizashi. Hope this is useful. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 While most of the swords I saw signed or attributed to Sukesada over the years do have the typical Bizen nakago, I've come across quite a few with the other shape, but what's unusual is they most always seem to be wakizashi. Hope this is useful. Regards, Lance When we speak from experience, rather than rely on what we read in books, we learn there are plenty of exceptions. You have also made another key observation: Koto Sukesada, in general, tends to have a more organic, less orderly hamon than Shinto. Another difference is the hada.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 When we speak from experience, rather than rely on what we read in books, we learn there are plenty of exceptions. So true Chris...while books are extremely valuable when you chance upon a "classic" example of what is written about (usually the gokaden), it does not help much to explain the variants that occur, or wakimono either....perhaps that is why the board tends to dismiss outright more often than it advises further research or the consideration of other possibilities. Just my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 When we speak from experience, rather than rely on what we read in books, we learn there are plenty of exceptions. Quite so. Books, as invaluable as they are, merely point the way and give direction to our observations of any given blade. There is no substitute for handling as many swords as possible and knowing what we are looking at (often with the help of books or a mentor). The knowledge we gain from even the best books is only partial, and to every rule there are numerous exceptions. Knowing what those exceptions may be is part of that knowledge we all pursue. There is also little chance of making a reliable and definitive attribution based on photographs and measurements no matter how high resolution and exhaustive they may be. A sword in hand presents differently, sometimes better and clearer, and generally yields more information to those who know what to look for. Reading back, the vast majority of posts on this forum deal in possibilities and likelihoods based on whatever information is given. Indeed, they can do no more than that without the sword in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 There is also little chance of making a reliable and definitive attribution based on photographs and measurements no matter how high resolution and exhaustive they may be. In general, I agree, but there are exceptions to this as well...Sometimes it is the experience I spoke of above that allows one to make a fairly accurate attribution based on the recognition and interpretation of only a few key points....Case in point: One time on another, non-Japanese sword related message board, a fellow posted some pictures of a wakizashi he found in an attic. He only posted a few poor photos, the hamon was barely visible (perfect sanbonsugi). Many people said the sword was fake. I said it was most likely a Mino Seki blade made in the 17th century and if the handle was removed and there was a signature, it would read Kane something. Boy, did that cause a s#4t storm! Like some of our own doubting Thomas', people could not believe that anyone could possibly make such a detailed analysis from a few blurry photos. I received a photo of the signature from the owner some time later (Kanenobu as I recall).... It bears mentioning that you can have all the measurements, and even the sword in hand, but if you lack the experience that tells you what to look for, the significance of what you see, and how to interpret it all, you will still be lost in the desert...This experience does not come from books and the internet. Good shinsa'in are without exception people that have seen in hand, many thousands of swords..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritaly Posted June 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Hi all hopefully I post this right, first time posting as I found I might have something to add to a discussion after checking out the site for a while. Attached are 2 pictures of a wakizashi signed Sukesada, similar shape as the one originally posted as well as the example Chris posted. I've had it for around 15 years, has a typical Mount Fuji/Crab claw hamon, although the pattern is much more regular and less free flowing than earlier examples as Koto turned to Shinto. I believe my sword was made by one of the many Shinto Sukesada, and is probably nothing special except to me (first sword and given to me by my father) While most of the swords I saw signed or attributed to Sukesada over the years do have the typical Bizen nakago, I've come across quite a few with the other shape, but what's unusual is they most always seem to be wakizashi. Hope this is useful. Regards, Lance Thanks for your post, I only saw it today. This confirms that one can never really know for sure what he has in hands, there'll always be a doubt. That's maybe the most frustrating part of nihonto for me, I'm a computer scientist, I like determistic things Anyways, thanks for sharing. I may have one of the exceptions that confirm the general rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Hi, Funny discussion, :D i still wonder myself how man can attribute a mumei blade to a smith based on poor pictures and a speculation on a detail when the whole shape (specially the nakago) doesn't match the school; going straight on the reshaped nakago's version seems to me irrational. I recall a blade we had once to kantei. all the people present had given that blade Bizen, when the tsuka was removed, the sword turned to be Soshu and signed Fusamune. Experience never protects anybody being wrong, it only reduces the probabilities, that depends of the "talent" too; its like musicians or painters, some are bad all along their life, some become good artists and few become masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts