Tsuba Translation .... Nobu ????

[Klink]

Is this a Chinese Tsuba?  It looks like Nobu to me but the bottom looks like Chinese Lu.   Its non-metallic and heavy so I guess its brass and cast ......  Thanks in advance.    

Edited Saturday at 08:29 PM by Klink

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dean,

I relying on AI for this so...

 

信盧 - Shinro " ( an alternate art-name (go) used by the late Edo period metalwork artist Hata Nobuyoshi (1807–1878) or other skilled craftsmen of the Iwama school".

 

I've got no idea if it's genuine. One here by the same artist to compare, but they do look quite different. https://www.zacke.at/auction/lot/lot-98---nobuyoshi-a-fine-shibuichi-tsuba-with-daidarabotchi-and-wasobei/?lot=61616&sd=1

[uwe]

It might purport to be a work of “信盧” (Nobuyoshi)…but doesn’t look good!

 

[Klink]

Thanks for the comments!

 

1)  First looking at the Kanji for Yoshi in the "Kanji Used In Names" section, I don't see one that resembles that Kanji.

2)  What AI do you use because Google AI comes up with Lee even if I take that character and search.  Maybe I need to get Grok??

3)  Uwe it does look a little rough.....

 

So here is a question.  My AI says Japan started casting brass in the early Edo period.  So when the artist made a casting did he then make multiple Tsubas?

 

"Excavations in Nara, Japan, uncovered roughly 800 tsuba-casting artifacts and over 200 spherical melting pots containing zinc and copper traces." quote from Markus Sesko

[Bugyotsuji]

If Shinro, then the ro comes from here…

 

[Klink]

OK I just found ChatGPT and here is what that AI states regarding the Kanji:

 

The Japanese characters 信盧 are not a common Japanese word or phrase.

Shin — “trust,” “faith,” “belief,” or “reliance”

盧 (ろ / ro) — the uncommo

Together, Shinro (Shinro / sh doesn't have a standard meaning in modern Japanese. It may be a name, a typo, or Chinese characters being used in a Japanese context.

 

Out of curiosity the Kanji in the picture for Ro does not have the bar on the bottom.  Is that common in writing Kanji to leave out a stroke?

Edited Saturday at 09:40 PM by Klink

[SteveM]

I think this is a cast replica, and it's best not to dwell too much on errant or missing strokes.

 

If you look at authenticated (papered) works of Nobuyoshi, you can see how his true signature should look. The meanings of the characters themselves aren't so important. Sometimes artists pick the characters for the sound, and sometimes they pick them for the meaning, and sometimes they might be given to them by a mentor or relative. Characters might even be picked because of some superstitious reason (eg. the number of strokes in the kanji character is deemed lucky). 

 

I wouldn't rely too much on AI to parse these kinds of historical topics. Sometimes its good, but sometimes it just leads you down pointless dead ends, as its done here. 

[Klink]

Thanks Steve, good points.  

[Brian]

Honestly, what's the point of trying to translate a mei that is clearly cast or stamped in, and not carved?
I wouldn't go past that point before calling this a fake. Sorry.

[Shugyosha]

Well it was kind of late at night for me and, had the OP already bought it, I didn't want to be the one to rain on his parade. I hinted in a roundabout way by providing a link to something by way of a comparison.

[ROKUJURO]

15 hours ago, Klink said:

Is this a Chinese Tsuba? ..... Its non-metallic and heavy so I guess its brass and cast ......

Hi Dean,

this TSUBA may not be iron, but of course it is metallic - brass is a soft-metal alloy. We have to differentiate between traditional casting techniques and modern ones. And to make thing more difficult, there are also brass TSUBA which were not cast.

In the beginning, brass was first imported from China in the Nara period (8th century AD), and it was considered very precious, close to gold. Brass was used to cast mirrors, religious implements, music instruments, and architectural (= temple) fittings. 

Casting was made in clay molds for single use, so it was a time and work consuming techique. The first cast brass TSUBA came up in the 17th century (cast copper was produced much earlier). The technique was later refined by using a wax mode. A negative "mother mold" was used to produce wax TSUBA which could then be used to make molds for single casting. Thus, a slightly higher output was possible.

Modern casting technology (beginning in early MEIJI JIDAI) allowed to cast decorated TSUBA which did not need much work to finish them, and with the latest development in this field, high output numbers are possible. 

There is also a more artistic technology in which a brass blank is pre-cast and then worked on by cutting and chiseling.  

The above pictured TSUBA is a modern cast example, not necessarily made in Japan.

 Just a remark: The plural of TSUBA is TSUBA, not Tsubas.

[Klink]

I think I am getting better at distinguishing copies from true artist works based on the forum in general and these comments.  It is a slow process because of all of the individual component and styles involved with Nihonto.  But I used to not be able to look at a picture and tell a Chinese tsukamaki job, a chemical etch hamon, Chinese Koshirae, ect.   This tsuba was included with a bunch of other parts and as the story goes you have to separate the chaff from the wheat.  As the listing started I had a gut feeling that the item was a copy but I was interested in the Kanji and the associated artist. 

 

Jean, I did mean to say that metal was not magnetic but some how metallic came out. :-) Also thanks for the casting info in general.

 

From this discussion I found links to works of Nobuyoshi / Shinro and compared the Mei ect.  

Thanks to all for sharing and helping a Neophyte gain some knowledge.     

I look forward to gaining more insight!        

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Dean,

the apprenticeship in this field is about 35 years for Westerners and 2 years less for Japanese. So be patient and study!