Muromachi o-suriage school help?

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

I have a mumei koto katana, which based on the sugata I have dated to mid to late muromachi. I am stuck on the school. The polish makes it difficult to tell, but I think Yamashiro. What are your thoughts. Here are some blade facts and some close ups. I'll also post some not-so-close-ups. I should also mention that this blade is remarkably healthy. I have inspected over and over and the blade doesn't have a single ware. In most of the examples I have seen around this price range (I'll keep that to myself thanks) they have at least had some minor ware. It was acquired in mounts discussed on NMB- F/K: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7248 and Tsuba: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7485. I would very greatly appreciate your opinion of the blade itself and confirmation/correction on school if possible. Thank you deeply in advance.

 

Blade Measurements:

Nagasa: 26.5” (Before suriage, 29.75”)

Hamachi: 0.12"

Munemachi: 0.16"

Nakago: 7.75"

Sori: 0.75"

Kasane: 0.25"

Mihaba: 2.25"

Yokote: 1.73"

 

Blade Details:

Date: Late Koto, Muromachi Period (1392-1573)

Mei: Mumei (O-Suriage)

School: Yamashiro (?)

Nakago-jiri: Kiri (O-suriage)

Yasurime: Kiri

Mune: Iori-mune

Jihada: Masame-hada, but difficult to tell due to polish

Hamon: hoso-suguha (w/ slight notare undulations)

Tsukurikomi: Shinogi-zukuri

Sori: Torii-zori

Hi: Bo-bi

Hi-tome: Kaki-nagashi (hi width decreasing past original mekugi-ana)

Boshi: Ko-maru sagari

 

Nakago:

 

 

 

Kisaki:

 

 

 

Ji:

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

Not-so-close-up:

 

 

 

 

Better Photo of Nakago:

[sanjuro]

Joe.

 

Would it be possible for you to post a longer shot showing the blade in its entirety please. Sugata even in a blade that has been shortened, is quite important in order to gain a feel of its former appearance, as well as its current appearance.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I can try, but it would be difficult. I have read the scanning pdf that has been floating around the NMB and getting the time to do that would be difficult. Any thoughts on the school based on the photos I do have?

[Grey Doffin]

I can try, but it would be difficult.

Not difficult at all. Put the blade on the floor, stand on a chair, and take the picture. Crop and post.

Grey

[SwordGuyJoe]

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees! Thanks Grey. I was thinking about how to get a high-res scan of the whole blade or pasting the pics I have together to do the same. Urgh, sometimes I am a complete knucklehead!

 

 

I can post a higher res if needed...

[Stephen]

looks good Joe , only thing better is on a dark sheet.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I looked around and the best I had was light green.

[sanjuro]

Thanks Joe.

 

OK.... Yamashiro, Nambokucho period possibly, although its hard to be so specific. Certainly no later than your attribution of the Muromachi period, and probably early Muromachi.

 

You have a very nice blade there............ The suriage was done beautifully. So many of this vintage sword were just cut down without a thought to the correct rake of the new nakago. This one retains its proportion and a decent length in the nakago. At a guess I would say the suriage was done fairly early.

[Jean]

Agreed with Keith, length+ sori = rather Nanbokucho

[sanjuro]

If we have Yamashiro and Nanbokucho correct that leaves only two major contenders for the school. Nobukuni and Aoye.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I understand on nanbokucho over muromachi and I thought about putting that as the date, but didn't want to make this older than it was, so as a default, called it muromachi. But pinning it to Nobukuni and Aoye, could you help me understand how you are connecting those dots? Thank you so very much!

[sanjuro]

Yoshino period....... Yamashiro. During this period there were only two major schools operating in the Yamashiro tradition. Since the sword has been shortened, much of the usual indicators centred on the nakago are removed and/or altered. It is therefore difficult to assign this sword with accuracy. Yamato and Yamashiro swords are difficult to separate at the best of times.

If this were a Muromachi sword,(Post 1394) then these two schools would still be in contention along with the Tegai school, Shikkake school, Nio School and the Mihara school. all of which made swords in the Yamashiro and the Yamato tradition. Remember, this was a period of transition for the two oldest schools of sword making.

The more I think about this sword, the more I am brought to the thought of the Tegai school who favoured the Yamashiro tradition, and whose roots lay in the Yoshino (Nanbokucho) period. I still think however that this blade is older than the Tegai school, and my money, along with my gut feeling, would be with the Aoye school. I would love to have this sword in hand.

I once had the extreme honour to hold and handle a tachi of this age. Strangely, it too was of the Aoye school, and completely original. The blade was 34 inches in length (nagasa) and was like a bird in the hand. So well balanced was it. ( Yes Yoda..... take your medication and lie down, theres a good fellow).

 

Just MHO..........

[SwordGuyJoe]

and was like a bird in the hand

 

Very interesting that you bring this up! There are two major things that are striking to me about the blade, first the health - which I mentioned. The second is how it feels when in hand. Remarkably well balanced and feels, for lack of a better phrase, it just feels right. I have only been collecting for about five years, so I haven't had my hands on thousands of blades, but certainly hundreds and this is by a wide margin the most well balanced blade I have ever held (much less had the privilege of owning).

 

Fantastic blade, well done even down to the suriage. Truly a wonderful piece and am dreaming of it in full polish!

[Stephen]

maybe the just right sword has come along for you, I'm sure many members remember that first sword that spoke to them, even sent shivers down your arms and to your heart.

[sanjuro]

The sheer joy of handling a fine koto blade is why I love Nihonto. Shinto blades feel dead by comparison, and whilst some of them are fine blades also, they can for me never match a fine koto example. As someone else here has said. 'Its all about the steel'.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I checked 'Connoisseur's...' which led me to Yamashiro, looking for Nobukuni and Aoye - no luck. Can you help provide me with some key attributes or a reference so I can help myself tell the difference between the two? Thank you all so very much, your insight is greatly appreciated.

 

Off-topic: Hopefully I have expressed how much I enjoy this sword and that should help you understand that I am not going to part with it any time soon. I say that to preface my next question. Can someone PM me and give me an estimated value so I can insure (and understand if I paid more than fair market value)? I would also be interested in value if in full polish to try to cost/benefit whether I need to leave it as is or if it is worth a polish (in the coming years).

 

I know the value is really what I place on it - and it's worth a million to me - but the insurance company doesn't like that as the answer! Again, please PM on that topic if you don't mind.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Joe,

No one will be able to appraise the sword's value accurately based only on a few photos. Should you ever need to use the insurance, your insurance company might ask questions about the appraisal, and when they learn how it was given they might be reluctant to pay. If you want a serious appraisal someone qualified will need to see the sword in hand.

Grey

[Jamie]

Keith, I hear you on Koto blades. I haven't been studying nihonto too long yet, but the most beautiful pieces I have seen so far have been Koto. I looked at a sword a few weeks ago, that was Nanbakucho. And certainly a fine example. The Hada just Jumped out of it. It looked alive.

[Mark Green]

Hi Joe,

Your sword looks a lot like mine here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7503

 

I was thinking Yamashiro as well. Someone emailed me last night and said I should look tto the Rai school.

doubtful. I have seen a few Rai up close, and the hamon was a bit more active.

 

It looks as though someone did a quick fingerstone job on your sword. imo. Using just the Hazuya. Likely to clean up some staining, and slight rust.

Can you get some good shots of the hada, or is it just too cloudy?

Nice looking old sword though.

I wish mine had that extra 1/8 of an inch.

 

You can get collectables riders on your swords from most Ins. Co. Like with jewlery. Just call your agent. A 2000lbs safe helps too

Mark g

[SwordGuyJoe]

No one will be able to appraise the sword's value accurately based only on a few photos.

 

I understand and like I said, I am really not trying to sell, so I'll so some more digging. I was just wondering based on school, based on age, and koshirae, how much would it cost me to replace the piece. If we can't do that, I'll continue to swim through the commercial links to try to find a similar piece.

 

Can you get some good shots of the hada, or is it just too cloudy?

 

Unfortunately, it is too cloudy. If I could find the value of a similar blade in full polish, it would help me justify the $100+ per inch, shirasaya, tsunagi, and habaki. But right now, frankly I am not sure that once I do that and have it papered, that I would be able to get that money back out of it when I decide to move to a different piece.

 

Truthfully I am typically a gendai collector, so I am a bit out of my element when it comes to Koto. Although experiencing this piece makes me give significant thought selling my gendaitos, shintos, and shinshintos to go all in on a beauty of a koto blade (and potentially get this blade polished and papered).

[pcfarrar]

Truthfully I am typically a gendai collector, so I am a bit out of my element when it comes to Koto. Although experiencing this piece makes me give significant thought selling my gendaitos, shintos, and shinshintos to go all in on a beauty of a koto blade (and potentially get this blade polished and papered).

 

From the photos given and the current state of polish declaring the sword koto is a bit optimistic IMHO. Send it to someone like Bob Benson and get a window polished. Bob should then be able to give you a good appraisal on the age/quality.

[raaay]

Hi Joe

 

Is it a koto blade . at this point in time i agree with Peter's statement

better to have it checked first.

 

all the best

 

Ray

[drbvac]

I would certainly get a window done by some polisher - and get some idea of what they feel the maker/era may be - it could very well be worth more than you think.

 

Joe said "Your sword looks a lot like mine here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7503

 

I was thinking Yamashiro as well. Someone emailed me last night and said I should look tto the Rai school.

doubtful. I have seen a few Rai up close, and the hamon was a bit more active.

 

I wish mine had that extra 1/8 of an inch. ""

 

Funny how we're all looking for lenght

 

It even looks a little like mine which I know is mid-muromachi and it is not shortened so is still 40" long

[Mark Green]

That was me Dr. Brian.

My sword is 23 7/8 in long. All I can guess on that, is that it was last owned by a non-Samurai, who wanted to stay under the legal limit.

I still like it at that lenght, but that 1/8 th in. would make it katana. We all know that's what it was.

I would love to see some better pics of your blade.

Mark G

[drbvac]

Sorry Mark!

 

It was also a bit of tongue in cheek about guys wanting any little bit of extra "length" and your blade is certainly still worthy of a further look see regardless of size. As you said it was greatly shortened so ---

Its 5 am here and I am off fishing with the "boys" to NB for the week-end. Scotch is packed and I think I have a fishing rod somewhere so will post some better pics first of the week.