Shippo pattern or star maps?

[ROKUJURO]

Well, this is a useless debate about competence!

Are car dealers experts on cars? No, they are sellers, equipped with a bare minimum of technical understanding.

[Dan tsuba]

So, guys. 

 

Maybe off topic here, or maybe not? 

 

But I have always found it interesting that there doesn't seem to be one Japanese person that lives in Japan that is an active member of this tosogu forum (correct me if I am wrong). 

 

Now, why do you think that is?

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Dan

 

I believe Moriyama San has often helped greatly on many of the Fora including Tosogu.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:52 AM by Baka Gaijin

[Dereks]

53 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

So, guys. 

 

Maybe off topic here, or maybe not? 

 

But I have always found it interesting that there doesn't seem to be one Japanese person that lives in Japan that is an active member of this tosogu forum (correct me if I am wrong). 

 

Now, why do you think that is?

 

I believe you are also not an active member in Japanese forums..now why do you think that is? 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Japanese dealers will in general carefully shape their replies so as not to disagree with a customer, or will actively agree in the hopes of future custom.

 

If here is no history of a sale, and no prospect of a sale, most will not reply at all to one-way brain picking.

[Brian]

We have a number of Japanese members, not least of which are Moriyama san, Morita san, and others.
Plus a significant number of Westerners who live and work in Japan.

[Dan tsuba]

Hey guys,

 

I apologize, this is off topic here (but I will get back on topic soon, I know many of you are saying "oh no" - ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

This is directed to Derek (Dereks).

 

Hey Derek,

Why don't you just go to all the threads I posted on over the years and downvote all my posts?

Go for it!

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

....Why don't you just go to all the threads I posted on over the years and downvote all my posts?....

Obviously you even don't understand the use of these comment buttons.

They are not meant to evaluate a person but the contents of a related post!

[Dan tsuba]

I apologize again guys (hey, give me time and I will get back to the subject of this thread!).

 

"Obviously you even don't understand the use of these comment buttons.

They are not meant to evaluate a person but the contents of a related post!"

 

But there is the expected put down from a member that so frequently does that to other members.

 

 

[Dereks]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hey guys,

 

I apologize, this is off topic here (but I will get back on topic soon, I know many of you are saying "oh no" - ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

This is directed to Derek (Dereks).

 

Hey Derek,

Why don't you just go to all the threads I posted on over the years and downvote all my posts?

Go for it!

 

Why would I waste my time on you? 

 

I like posts when I genuinely like them. If I don’t, I simply don’t do anything. If I feel a post has no knowledge or meaningful contribution behind it, I downvote it. But you are right, all your posts deserve a downvote, I simply have no time for it, sorry. 

 

You don’t have a single thread on this forum that actually makes sense. As I’ve said before, you never have anything meaningful to contribute..you just enjoy the negative attention.

 

In thread after thread, knowledgeable members here take the time to explain things to you, yet you ignore-perhaps you just don't understand - what they’re saying and keep repeating the same point like a broken record. This time it’s “Japanese tsuba dealers.”

 

I find that attitude disrespectful to the people in this community who genuinely try to help.

 

In each of your threads, people end up pulling their hair out because of you. Have you ever wondered why?

 

Do you realize you’re the only person on this forum who keeps getting criticized? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? 

 

You say that other members are being rude to you. Have you ever seen them treat anyone else the same way? Why do you think that is?

 

No more replies from me to any of your posts. Your situation is just hopeless. 

 

I’m also adding you to my ignore list, just as many others have before. 

 

Have a great evening!

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Well guys, these members leave me no choice but to defend myself against their verbal assaults.

 

As far as I am concerned, good riddance to you on this thread!

 

[zanilu]

Non c'è peggior sordo di chi non vuol sentire. 

 

There is none so deaf as he who will not hear.

 

Now down vote me if you want. I take it as badge of honor. 

[Hector]

12 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Well, Jean (Rokojuru), you obviously haven't taken your antipsychotic meds today!

Try again later!

That just crossed a real line and is deeply insulting to anyone who is on medication for any mental condition or illness.

Such glib throwaway insults should not be tolerated on this forum, whatever the writer's opinion of people's comments or downvotes. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hector,

Thank you and you are correct.

I have taken those statements out of my above posts.

[DirkO]

If you don't agree with someone and their posts anger/upset/annoy/.... you - you can always just block them under your profile. Very useful feature to do some self moderation.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi guys! 

 

Back on topic here. 

 

So back on page 4 of this thread, I showed a picture of a tsuba (the picture is shown again below). 

 

And I am not trying to create conflicts. And I am not wishing to generate any more hostile type posts from members.

 

I am just genuinely interested in the opinions of the members on how they interpret the motif on this tsuba. 

 

All opinions are welcome.  I will not counter any opinion with my opinion.  Again, I do not want to create conflicts. 

 

I am just interested in what other members see depicted in the motif. 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

[Hokke]

I will tell you what I see in the picture you posted Dan, but before I do, would you tell me what you see in mine? The isnt a trick or a trap, just a genuine curiosity. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Hokke (Calabrese),

Wow, I have no clue!

My first reaction was an octopus!

But it doesn't have eight limbs, so that thought is out!

Maybe it is some sort of Buddhist symbol?

But I know nothing about that stuff!

O.K., I am stumped!

 

[Hokke]

4 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Hokke (Calabrese),

Wow, I have no clue!

My first reaction was an octopus!

But it doesn't have eight limbs, so that thought is out!

Maybe it is some sort of Buddhist symbol?

But I know nothing about that stuff!

O.K., I am stumped!

 

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your willingness to indulge me.

The picture I posted is nothing.....literally.  I made it many years ago as a demonstration. It is a simple sterling silver fork which I used to demonstrate cutting, filing, sanding, annealing, bending, geometry, texture and stone setting. 

My point is this: IMO, when a craftsman "creates" something, it doesn't always have to be representative of "something". It can simply be a blank canvas by which one can practice or demonstrate techniques. It can also be representative of someone just killing some time when they are bored.

So, when I look at the picture you posted, and you ask what * I * see......my answer would nothing in particular in terms of a "thing". I see geometric shapes oriented similar to what I have seen in shippo motif's I see radiuses carved that could represent rudimentary hills or mounds.  I see hitsu-ana that seem to be offset or crooked and lastly I see gold accent. I dont have a clue what the artist was trying to represent with in this tsuba, but there is a chance it wasn't meant to represent anything at all. We will never know....

I think it can be enjoyable to look at tsuba like a Rorschach test, but not if is degrades into a "my view is more valid than your view", which is where we seem to have gone and that, for me, sucks all the fun out of it. 

[eternal_newbie]

6 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I am just interested in what other members see depicted in the motif.

 

Leaves or insects in the wind, above blades of long grass (I have no idea if this is what it represents, just the first thing that popped into my head when I saw it earlier)

[John C]

Not sure what I see, however have we tried to look at the piece as a whole. In other words, not only looking at the design, but also the whole tsuba. Is the roundness of the tsuba or the placement of the ana or the number of ana part of the design? How do the interior elements interact with the exterior ones?

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

Hey guys.

Keep those opinions coming in!

They are very interesting, great, and helpful!

Like I stated in my above post all opinions are welcome, and I will not counter any opinions.

I know, maybe I should have taken this approach in the beginning.

Oh well, my bad!

[Dan tsuba]

Hey guys.

So, I was just floundering around on the internet again and came across this constellation tsuba (shown below).

What I find interesting, it is the only other constellation motif type tsuba that I have seen that uses holes as stars.

There are long slots carved through the tsuba to connect the holes (stars).

But the motif is large and those long slots can be seen.

If the motif was smaller, would the craftsman have used those type of slots to connect the holes?  I think if he did use those type of slots to connect the holes, than the constellation pattern would not be as easy to discern as using the rice type shape slots.

Oh well, just a thought!

 

 

 

[John C]

From a design perspective, why connect the dots at all? Were they concerned no one would "get it" if they just put holes or gold dots?

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks for your post John!.

You brought up a good point.

Yes, like you stated, why connect the dots?

Wait a minute, wasn't that a game a long time ago?

Maybe the craftsmen were more interested in showing the constellation pattern when the dots were connected?

Hey, I don't know!

[Matsunoki]

I believe they are simply copying the old Chinese (and other) constellation maps where the stars are joined by lines. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I think the above tsuba depicts a stylised dragon in the clouds and is nothing to do with stars . What worries me about this theory that these shippo patterns represent stars is that the distances between the so called stars are equidistant whereas in actual constellations these distances vary.

I am not saying that tsuba with star constellations on them do not exist . The attached Saotome tsuba is described as depicting the big dipper . Note how the distances and angles between the stars vary ,unlike with the shippo patterns

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Ian, thanks for your post.

Well, the tsuba I showed above was described by the seller as the motif being the Big Dipper.

Although I think it may be the Little Dipper, since both constellations have 7 main stars (although the Big Dipper has a double star in it that can be discerned with the naked eye with those with good vision - so that would make 8 stars in the Big Dipper).

But then again, what do I know!

You stated  "What worries me about this theory that these shippo patterns represent stars is that the distances between the so called stars are equidistant whereas in actual constellations these distances vary."

First off, don't worry about anything about these constellation type tusba it is not worth it!  Ha, ha, ha, etc!

What is interesting, though, is that in the tsuba I showed above where the seller stated it was the Big Dipper those stars look (to me) fairly equidistant from each other.

Just my opinion, and I am not trying to create any conflict (I think I have had enough of that!).