Silver tsuba quality ?

[John C]

The details/quality of this silver tusba don't seem to warrant the use of precious metals to me. I'm probably missing something. Opinions?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126480417057?

 

John C.

 

[Bazza]

?Modern fake? There's just 'something' about it..

 

BaZZa.

[Spartancrest]

If you want a real Silver tsuba  it will have hallmarks on it    https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1211899326

[eternal_newbie]

1 hour ago, Bazza said:

Modern fake? There's just 'something' about it..

 

Or made solely for foreigners to buy in a souvenir shop.

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Or made solely for foreigners to buy in a souvenir shop.

Most of all it seems to be true. These are not the lowest quality items, but the carving is quite simple, there is no inlay, just painted.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/15678/lot/291/a-large-shibuichi-tsuba-after-unno-shomin-meiji-period/

[Matsunoki]

Horrible! Somehow lacks the refinement of quality found in Bakumatsu and Meiji pieces

Personally I’m thinking they are much more recent and intended to deceive.

[Hokke]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is horrible, although I don't know to which Colin was referring, but I would say simply not representative of what can be achieved when made traditionally. That said, $2600 for 8oz of silver in this configuration is....optimistic, to say the least. Still potential for a good bit of work there, I dont see any obvious signs of casting, but the pictures arent great either. Has anyone taken a crack at the hakogaki?

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Hokke said:

although I don't know to which Colin was referring,

Sorry….the original tsuba, the subject of this topic.

Look at things like the tigers’ feet. Also I haven’t checked the actual description but the tiger looks cut into the plate rather than inlaid. It has no finesse or subtlety 

The one Victor shows is better.

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

That said, $2600 for 8oz of silver in this configuration is....optimistic, to say the least. 

I think it's just an alloy with a low silver content. However, we do not evaluate tosogu based on the content of precious metals.

 

54 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

It has no finesse or subtlety 

The one Victor shows is better.

Do you really think so? Because the inexperienced person who bought this tsuba turned out to be my countryman, I will share live photos of this tsuba. This tsuba was definitely made by hand, there is carving, but there is no refinement, small details are blurred. Just a good souvenir for an inexperienced tourist, but not for that kind of money…

 

I think these are original Meiji or Showa items, but they were made without attention to detail and original technologies. The tourist will buy, and this is proof of that!

 

In general, I think there is no deception in high-quality tosogu, everything is visible here if you know where and what to look at.

 

I think it would not be superfluous to recall:

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Exclus1ve said:

Do you really think so?

Actually looking again…..no. 
How about this one on bay…..it is dated 2001.….same shape nakago ana. Same artist? These are all modern imo

[Exclus1ve]

45 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

How about this one on bay…..it is dated 2001.….same shape nakago ana. Same artist? These are all modern imo

Maybe modern, I agree, Colin. Your example is even better than the previous ones, but there is still something missing...sophistication... I think this is the fate of many modern artists, few people will be able to find the meaning to spend their whole lives on this craft in order to achieve perfection.

[Matsunoki]

 

6 minutes ago, Exclus1ve said:

Maybe modern, I agree, Colin. Your example is even better than the previous ones, but there is still something missing...sophistication... I think this is the fate of many modern artists, few people will be able to find the meaning to spend their whole lives on this craft in order to achieve perfection.

I agree totally Victor. The deer tsuba above looks lovely at first glance but closer examination shows that the meticulous detail and subtlety is not there. It is a bit stiff and wooden. 

However, this deer piece is still an attractive tsuba and maybe the artist will continue on his journey. But the  extra detail is what takes 10 times longer to achieve. It’s the best modern one I’ve seen except for Fords’ work.

 

[Dan tsuba]

I can see what everyone is saying about the tsuba shown being modern (not Edo period or before).

What do you call tsuba like this?

Replicas, forgeries, or fakes?

Unfortunately, I feel bad for the collector (or anybody else) that purchases one of these

thinking that the tsuba is an original authentic Edo period tsuba.

I mean to get ripped off for about $2500 dollars (or more) is not a fun thing.

My motto, if I don’t spend a lot I can’t get ripped off for a lot (but that’s just me!).

[Matsunoki]

8 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

What do you call tsuba like this?

A mistake (if you buy one not knowing what it is) 🙂

[ROKUJURO]

7 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

.....Personally I’m thinking they are much more recent and intended to deceive.

Colin,

I absolutely share your opinion, and in addition, I will say that they are not carved but press molded, and not made in Japan. In fact, they are not in any category of TSUBA.

Did anyeone see these kind of "TSUBA" 10 years ago?

[Matsunoki]

17 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Did someone see these kind of "TSUBA" 10 years ago?

Nope, not me.

 

Compare to a similar subject (unsigned Hamano I think)…..big difference in quality although mine is by no means the finest work….but I like it🙂

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

I absolutely share your opinion, and in addition, I will say that they are not carved but press molded, and not made in Japan. In fact, they are not in any category of TSUBA.

Did anyeone see these kind of "TSUBA" 10 years ago?

Re-examining some items, I agree about the casting with further refinement. But such things have at least been seen at auctions since 2000, according to the online-archives… It is interesting to see the original source.

[Hokke]

21 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

 and not made in Japan. In fact, they are not in any category of TSUBA.

Interesting....what do you see that makes you believe they cant be made in Japan?

[ROKUJURO]

It is not Japanese quality and design in my opinion. Good Japanese TSUBA always have a practical side; they are not just fancy or flashy. Well, most of them....

[Hokke]

5 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

It is not Japanese quality and design in my opinion. 

Oh ok, so it isn't because you see a specific characteristic that indicates another country of manufacture. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. While I agree with you on the quality when compared to historic examples, in today's Japan, I cant be so sure that there are ZERO producers of this level of work. After all, if there is a market, a sale is a sale. 

[ROKUJURO]

Calabrese,

you missed the second part of my reply: Good Japanese TSUBA always have a practical side; they are not just fancy or flashy. Well, most of them....

I don't know if other nations besides China are actually attempting to make TSUBA for sale. But looking at these modern creations, I simply can't imagine them mounted on a sword while even the most ornate MEIJI era TSUBA will keep that functional aspect. Well, most of them; I have seen exeptions.

Perhaps it is only my personal feeling.....

[MauroP]

The hakogaki is well written and states some perfectly legitimate assumptions about the tsuba. Unfortunately (or rather, thank God), it is not by the Satō Kanzan. Below are others hakogaki, likely written by the same “pseudo-Kanzan,” concerning modern tsuba.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Mauro,

Thanks for the hakogaki pictures and your statement of “The hakogaki is well written and states some perfectly legitimate assumptions about the tsuba. Unfortunately (or rather, thank God), it is not by the Satō Kanzan. Below are others hakogaki, likely written by the same “pseudo-Kanzan,” concerning modern tsuba.”

Unfortunately (as much as I have tried!) I can’t read Japanese.

Why is everything written about tsuba in Japan always written in Japanese?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!  Just having a bit of fun!

Anyway, I don’t know enough about computer translation to translate the hakogaki.

If someone out there can translate them, I think that would be of interest to many members that read this thread.

Thanks!

[MauroP]

24 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

If someone out there can translate them, I think that would be of interest to many members that read this thread.

Thanks!

Dan, stay tuned!

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53919-tsuba-hakogaki-written-by-satō-kanzan/

[Hokke]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Calabrese,

you missed the second part of my reply

Greetings Jean,

 

I read your post very carefully which is why I initially posed my follow up question. My only goal was to make sure I had not missed an obvious feature that would have made the origin of these tsuba absolute. So it is possible these were manufactured in Japan, not  to be "good", as you put it, but rather quite simply, because there seems to be a market for them.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Calabrese,

unfortunately, there is no "absolute". I am only looking at images, but my impression is these TSUBA are newly made (= 10 years or so) for sale to unsuspecting collectors/buyers. They do not look like MEIJI JIDAI products to me. Unused, no traces of hand-tools, obviously made for "bling" only. Sometimes the decoration is even on the SEPPA-DAI, which is very rare in Japanese TSUBA, and if it's done, it is made flat so as not to interfere with the SEPPA. As I tried to explain, these new ones lack the TSUBA function in my eyes.

I cannot say where they are made, but I don't think they are made in Japan.

Do you know the black Walter Compton collection catalogue from about the late 1970s? There you find spectacular late 19th century TSUBA in high quality, very ornate (not my taste) and very well made. But they are real TSUBA!   

You will certainly ask experts for their respective opinion on these modern TSUBA, and I am very curious about the outcome! Maybe I am wrong?

[Matsunoki]

I think we can agree these modern items are simply made as a “work of art”…..not necessarily a good work of art. There is no intention for them to be mounted thus not tsuba in the true sense.

Maybe there is no real intention to deceive, after all the one I posted with deer on it is dated 2001. 
On the other hand some are not dated and have fooled the so called experts in some “prestigious” auction houses so that proves they can deceive some folk. 
Personally I think they could be made in Japan, the mei on some of them does have a distinctly Japanese feel to me although I am no calligraphy expert. 
I am really interested to see what the inscriptions on the boxes say, that might shed some light on them.

Know what you buy!

[MauroP]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

I am really interested to see what the inscriptions on the boxes say, that might shed some light on them.

Know what you buy!

 

鐔 寒山拾得図 * tsuba   Kanzan Jittoku zu

 

朧銀銅广地丸形 * oborogin migaki-ji maru-gata
耳打返高彫 * mimi uchikaeshi takabori
金銀色絵象嵌 * kin gin iroe zōgan
銘定常金象嵌 * mei Sadatsune kin-zōgan
昭和甲辰年春吉日 ＊ Shōwa kinoe-tatsu-nen haru kichijitsu [1964, spring, an auspicious day]
寒山誌 ＊ Kanzan shirusu 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Mauro,

I may have finally found out how to use Google translate (yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks!).

So here is your translation shown above-

 

鐔 寒山拾得図 * tsuba   Kanzan Jittoku zu

 

朧銀銅广地丸形 * oborogin migaki-ji maru-gata
耳打返高彫 * mimi uchikaeshi takabori
金銀色絵象嵌 * kin gin iroe zōgan
銘定常金象嵌 * mei Sadatsune kin-zōgan
昭和甲辰年春吉日 ＊ Shōwa kinoe-tatsu-nen haru kichijitsu [1964, spring, an auspicious day]
寒山誌 ＊ Kanzan shirusu 

 

Then Google translates that as shown below-

 

Tsuba (sword guard): Kanzan and Jittoku design

Oborogin (frosted silver) and copper ground, round shape
Raised relief carving with turned-back edges
Gold and silver inlay
Signed: Sadatsune (with gold inlay)
Shōwa Kinoe-Tatsu year, spring, an auspicious day [1964, spring]
Recorded by Kanzan