Slaborde Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 (edited) I started pulling information together on this sword 3 years ago - and got pulled away. Folks here helped with the translation on the meh of Seki jū Okada Kaneyoshi saku” (関住岡田兼義作). I have been staring at this all day and the numerous support tables and my brain just doesn’t do well with kanji. I promised my family I’d put together a little write up on dad’s sword. He brought it back, like many, from Japan in 1946. Can you tell from the pictures if it’s a fake? Manufactured? I did not find serial numbers or arsenal stamps. There is the number 26 on the collar Tsuba. Thank you! Sword (1080 x 1350 px).zip Edited October 13 by Slaborde 1 Quote
Guest When Necessary Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 That's the right way round to read the signature but it looks like you're missing a character at the very top. Quote
mecox Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 @Slaborde Sara what you had is correct Seki jū Okada Kaneyoshi saku” (関住岡田兼義作). But your pic is : Seki jū Okada Kaneyoshi saku” ...住岡田兼義 Here is an example from Slough book. He is an OK smith producing Showato in Seki during the war. From Sesko book: “Kaneyoshi” (兼義), real name Okada Takeshi (岡田武), born October 20th 1908, younger brother of Okada Kanesada (岡田兼定), he worked as guntō smith and died March 15th 1972. Ranked as jōkō no retsu in 1942 list of around 400 smiths (5/7), and Fourth Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Exhibition in 1941. Does your blade have a stamp at the top of the kanji ? 1 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 13 Author Report Posted October 13 4 hours ago, mecox said: @Slaborde Does your blade have a stamp at the top of the kanji ? No, I didn’t find a stamp at the top. What does not having a stamp mean? Quote
Guest When Necessary Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 9 minutes ago, Slaborde said: Like this. Quote
Scogg Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 Hi Sara, and fellow Oregonian! The absence of a stamp may suggest that the sword was traditionally made, rather than being made using non-traditional materials/methods. Though it's not a guarantee. When you can, check under the habaki for any stamps. I’ve just started a Japanese Sword Club here in the Northwest. We're holding our first meeting in Tualatin on Sunday, December 7th. If you’d like to bring your sword by for a few more eyes and opinions, you’d be more than welcome. We’ve got members with a wide range of experience levels, and of course, the more the merrier. Feel free to PM or email me if you'd like the address or more details. https://www.pnwtokenkai.com/ All the best and cool sword, -Sam 1 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 13 Author Report Posted October 13 FYI, I have found the "Downloads" section of the group. Found Primer on Shingunto; and am starting to read Japanese Military and Civil swords.. Fuller /Gregory. Any suggestions are very welcome! 3 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 13 Author Report Posted October 13 Sam... The habaki comes off! The habaki is the brass-colored piece next to the Tsuba, right? Dang the sword is in Wisconsin. I thought I completely took it apart and photographed all the pieces! (Ha, when I researched my dad's Japanese rifles, I was forever finding another place to look for a stamp!) Will get my lil' brother on this right away! Im very interested in your December meeting. Will look into getting the sword shipped. thank you. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 Ohmura’s site is free and has over 65 pages of fabulous examples of all the versions and types of WWII Japanese swords: Military Swords of Imperial Japan another great site: Japanese Sword Index you will find a page on the care and cleaning of your sword on that side as well. Quote
Scogg Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 30 minutes ago, Slaborde said: Sam... The habaki comes off! The habaki is the brass-colored piece next to the Tsuba, right? Dang the sword is in Wisconsin. I thought I completely took it apart and photographed all the pieces! (Ha, when I researched my dad's Japanese rifles, I was forever finding another place to look for a stamp!) Will get my lil' brother on this right away! Im very interested in your December meeting. Will look into getting the sword shipped. thank you. Yes, the habaki is that brass collar right around where the blade transitions to the tang. It will come off, but sometimes, especially on these inherited ww2 brinbacks, they can be pretty "stuck". Proceed with caution when removing; I have nearly cut myself while struggling with stubborn stuck fittings. Even if you are unable to get your sword here before our meeting, you are more than welcome to attend anyway! I will be bringing a couple WW2 swords for show-and-tell, and some other members will be bringing items. It could be a worthwhile learning opportunity, and a rare chance to get your eyes and hands on some genuine examples. I will send you a PM with the address to the sword club event. No pressure though, it's an open invitation. All the best, -Sam 1 Quote
mecox Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 @Slaborde Sara, in the NMB Downloads look for the paper Japanese Swordsmiths Gifu 1937. This has a summary of your Okada Kaneyoshi which explains his background and the period and a pic. (Note that there are a number of "Kaneyoshi" but use different kanji). You will also find more info on NMB if you use the Search function (top right). It would be good to see a full pic of your sword to better understand what it is and timeframe. He looks to have been quite productive and also produced blades that were custom mounted. There is some variation in his work that indicates period of work. Here are some examples for study. (1) "Seki jū Okada Kaneyoshi saku" takanoha filing, bohi, no stamp [Slough p.74]. (2) (3) " Seki jū Okada Kaneyoshi" , sujikai filing, no stamp [Sara]. (4) (5) "Noshu Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku kore" takanoha filing,,,nagasa 69.6 cm, sori 1.6 cm, bohi, choji-gunome-midare hamon no stamp [Meirin Sangyo]. (6) (7) (8) "Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku" SEKI stamp, sujikai filing, nagasa 69.6 cm, sori 1.9 cm, gunome-midare hamon, custom "gunto" koshirae [Meirin Sangyo]. (9) "Okada Kaneyoshi saku" nagasa 64.0 cm, sori 1.6 cm, suguha-miadare hamon, shingunto leather saya cover. (10) (11) "Kaneyoshi" takanoha filing, nagasa 61.2 cm, sori 1.2 cm date: Showa 19 (1944). (12) (13) "Noshu Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku kore" takanoha filing, bohi, no stamp, nagasa 66.2 cm, sori 1.6 cm, suguha? hamon, well made blade [nosyudo.jp]. (14) (15) "Noshu Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku kore" takanoha filing, bohi, no stamp, nagasa 67.0 cm, sori 1.4 cm, choji-gunome-midare hamon [Meirin Sangyo]. (16) (17) "Noshu Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku kore" takanoha filing no stamp, nagasa 66.4 cm, sori 1.3 cm, koshirae is custom Type 98 shingunto, hamon irregular gunome-choji [ Kurogane House}. (18) (19) "Seki ju Okada Kaneyoshi saku" takanoha filing, gunome-choji-midare hamon, no stamp [yahoo auctions.co.jp] 5 4 Quote
Brian Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 Where else do you get a reply so comprehensive :-) Thanks Mal! 1 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 14 Author Report Posted October 14 (edited) Habaki update: Removed the habaki. I can’t see a stamp. (I know you also want a picture of the blade. I should have been clearer with my request for a picture of the “entire sword.” Will work on blade pictures tonight! Thank you! Edited October 14 by Slaborde 1 Quote
mecox Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 @Slaborde Sara, pic of sword (but still does not show kashira) and looks to me like its mounted for civilian working for Army. The detail of your tsuka shows menuki design of helmet/armour/tachi. The fuchi is not gunto. I wonder if gunto tsuba is added later and with spare seppa. The blade (and mounts) are similar to example #6,7, 8 posted above. But does not look would be carried by Army officer. Lets see other opinions. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 1 hour ago, mecox said: The blade (and mounts) are similar to examples #6,7, 8 posted above. But does not look would be carried by Army officer. That's an interesting question, Mal. I have seen these in a wide variety of mixed civil/army fittings, and always have assumed they were carried by regular army officers that had brought their own sword from home to be fitted out for service. Or, I've imagined sword shops buying civil swords and re-fitting them with a variety of military parts to sell to officers. However, I've never actually heard or read who was allowed to carry them. I checked Ohmura's pages for this style. Sounds like he said that both officers and civil employees carried them: "It is checked with record or a photograph of those days, the soldiers of each class attached the suspension mount to the scabbard of a Uchigatana-mounting, and covered by leather, and did the carrying as a Guntō. Army civilian employees were also doing the carrying of such a Guntō. Generally, the color of the army leather cover was brown and the navy leather cover was black." In my survey of Gunzoku swords, I've found an equal number of fully gunto vs civil re-fit with the Gunzoku tassel. Part of the difficulty comes with these civil re-fit ones when they come with standard officer tassels (blue/brown and red/brown), because for years, the Gunzoku were permitted to carry regular officer's gunto with tassels. It was only the Uniform Regulation change of 1940 that assigned them the all-brown tassel. 1 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 15 Author Report Posted October 15 3 hours ago, mecox said: @Slaborde Sara, pic of sword (but still does now show kashira) looks to me like mounted for civilian working for Army. The detail of your tsuka shows menuki of helmet/armour/tachi. The fuchi is not gunto. I wonder if gunto tsuba is added later and with spare seppa. The blade (and mounts) are similar to examples #6,7, 8 posted above. But does not look would be carried by Army officer. Lets see other opinions. Kashira: the end cap? It is very simple. 1 Quote
mecox Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 @Slaborde @Bruce Pennington Sara and Bruce thanks for kashira pic, as best as I can see it matches the fuchi (but poor pic of tsuka). So it is a complete bound tsuka with fuchi-kashira and menuki. However, I dont think the shingunto tsuba is original. It has an offset hole for spring clip as with shingunto, but seppa are not matched and no hole. Such a koshirae more likely to have plain iron tsuba with bigger hole for leather strap (like example 6-7-8). 1 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 Interesting. Also, the stamped number 26 would normally be seen on the seppa, as well. Well, Sara's dad brought it back, so like many others we've seen, we're left with a couple options. Either he found a sword that needed a tsuba and found a tsuba to put on it, or it was a replacement 'in the field.' 2 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 20 Author Report Posted October 20 It is comical, if you could see me reading your posts, stopping at every other word - checking my "parts of a Japanese sword" diagram - then refinding my pictures and going over them for tell-tale signs. I'd be more confident if I had the sword in hand and could stare at every piece again. (We're working on getting it here of the PNW December meeting.) I doubt Dad did anything to the sword when he got back, but I could see the boys sitting in the barracks thinking the plain iron tsuba just didn't look as cool as those more decorative tsubas. But then I could also see him, at 19, being glad he had a sword to bring home and making sure it fit in his duffel bag. I now have additional pictures of the blade and will post them as well. I so appreciate all your thoughtful guidance and discussion. Thank you. 2 Quote
Slaborde Posted October 20 Author Report Posted October 20 @mecox @Bruce Pennington Ok, here are pictures of the blade and a better pic of the tusk. This looks to me like there is a hamon, but it doesn't have a real wavy appearance. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 20 Report Posted October 20 3 hours ago, Slaborde said: It is comical, if you could see me reading your posts, stopping at every other word - checking my "parts of a Japanese sword" diagram Ha! I feel your pain! Been there, done that! I mostly have the terms down now, but will still occasionally have to look one up. It will come. So, others that study nihonto/gendaito (traditionally made blades) will chime in, but I don't see enough details due to the wartime polish and the wear & tear condition to tell if it was traditionally made or not. But then, I'm not very good at that. You have a cool sword, and a significant piece of WWII history. I don't think we've posted care and cleaning tips. Here's a good page: Japanese Sword Care. Google "Japanese sword cleaning kits" and you'll get a plethora of available options, most under $20. There's not many more things more soothing than to sit with your chogi ball and oil rag, cleaning your blade. Seriously, I love it. Quote
mecox Posted October 20 Report Posted October 20 @Slaborde @Bruce Pennington Sara well done with pics. Yes blade has a hamon, its not fully straight (suguha) but is slightly wavy, but hard to see. Looking at all your pics, my guess would be: a WW2 made sword by a good smith, and is a "Showato" (not traditionally made and not with tamahagane special iron) so would be oil tempered, but a well made example. Looks to have been mounted as a "samurai" katana, and may well have had a reasonable tsuba (guard) and someone has swapped it for a wartime gunto tsuba and cheap seppa (washers). It could have been a custom order as a katana, and could have had a leather cover on the saya (scabbard) and used by a civilian working with the military. Probably your dad got it like this, so is worth looking after. (do NOT use abrasives on blade or nakago (tang) over mei (signature). Follow what Bruce says. 3 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted October 21 Report Posted October 21 1 hour ago, mecox said: Looks to have been mounted as a "samurai" katana, and may well have had a reasonable tsuba (guard) and someone has swapped it for a wartime gunto tsuba and cheap seppa (washers). It could have been a custom order as a katana, and could have had a leather cover on the saya (scabbard) and used by a civilian working with the military. Mal, thank you for joining the discussion. My slight modification would be, and strictly just opinion/theory, it was made and sold fully as a civilian sword. Then, a shop or an officer, bought it and had the army fittings swapped in, including leather cover (these quite often never make it to us in this day and age). But that's just my opinion and we all know what those compare to!!! Ha! 1 Quote
mecox Posted October 21 Report Posted October 21 Bruce, maybe, but cant see marks of a suspension ring and still has kurikata. To me gunto tsuba is damaged, plus hole for spring clip and seppa are pop-outs. I think more likely someone pinched the tsuba that matched the fuchi-kashira and replaced with gunto. (Again an opinion!!). 1 Quote
mecox Posted October 21 Report Posted October 21 @Slaborde Sara, have a look at this sword (Kanesada), as a coincidence he was brother of your man (kaneyoshi) Quote
Slaborde Posted Wednesday at 02:23 AM Author Report Posted Wednesday at 02:23 AM @mecox @Bruce Pennington So Dad's sword is a katana. and originally looked more like this? (Is that the gunto tsuba on this pictures sword? And then do I refer to Dad's sword as a Shin-gunto katana? Quote
mecox Posted Wednesday at 02:47 AM Report Posted Wednesday at 02:47 AM @Slaborde I would call your sword a katana made in WW2 or just before. I my opinion it did not have any gunto (that is "army-sword") fittings and the brass one you posted was added later as a swap. So yes it would look like the one you just posted. There is one bit missing on your saya (scabbard), which was a metal (or bone or wood) ring around the mouth of saya (Koi-guchi "carp mouth"). The original tsuba could have been oval shape iron (or copper) with a simple design of carving keeping with the fuchi-kashira. Others may comment. Quote
Slaborde Posted Wednesday at 03:11 AM Author Report Posted Wednesday at 03:11 AM @mecox @Bruce Pennington I'll check with my brother, but I don't really remember anything like that on the saya. And now can we get to the topic I've been long waiting for... the menuki! I have been staring at that figure and looking at pictures of various menuki thinking of course I would see resemblances... Earlier you said that it has a menuki design of helmet/armour/tachi. When I search for that I get lots of images of helmets and masks. Do you have a picture of what that menuki looks like? Quote
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