Advice for new collectors from an old dog

[Mikaveli]

6 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Reading all this. all i am seeing is folks arguing over different points of view.

 

Which to sum up for me, let folks earn their own point of view and stop it with all the bickering.

 

If they ask, advise, if not leave them to it.

The difference is offering an opinion, verses a statement of fact.

 

You can freely dislike any den, be uninterested in certain smiths, periods, hamon.

 

You can collect anywhere you want within the field - that's fine. But if someone likes or values something different to you, they're not wrong.

[Alex A]

I agree, though edit and staying out of it lol

[Mikaveli]

41 minutes ago, Alex A said:

I agree, its an age old argument that's been fought here since i started.

 

Its a fact of life, some humans like to look down on other humans for many reasons, it makes them feel special.

 

At the end of the day though, we all end up with nothing.

 

They can think what they like - I think it's more down to attitude, and ultimately communication style. 

 

Consider:

1. "I recommend collecting koto blades, with a deep sori."

2. "Avoid shinto blades, with a Kanbun era sori, they're crap and not worth collecting"

 

The first is advice, still subjective - but no one should be insulted by someone's preference.

 

The second sentence, is negative, insulting to owners and rather than offered as a passive recommendation, is stated as an assertion of fact. 

 

Do these people talk to others like that in real life too?

 

Some forums have a "be nice" policy, that I think a few on this one could learn from.

[Brano]

21 minutes ago, Mikaveli said:

 

They can think what they like - I think it's more down to attitude, and ultimately communication style. 

 

Consider:

1. "I recommend collecting koto blades, with a deep sori."

2. "Avoid shinto blades, with a Kanbun era sori, they're crap and not worth collecting"

 

The first is advice, still subjective - but no one should be insulted by someone's preference.

 

The second sentence, is negative, insulting to owners and rather than offered as a passive recommendation, is stated as an assertion of fact. 

 

Do these people talk to others like that in real life too?

 

Some forums have a "be nice" policy, that I think a few on this one could learn from.

Michael - Thomas described his own perception of collecting
He didn't insult anyone, he didn't preach

 

Yet your own comment mocks his post
I really don't understand who this can benefit

 

It would be wonderful if everyone treated each other with respect and courtesy - not just on this forum
Unfortunately some people don't behave like that in real life either

[Mikaveli]

15 minutes ago, Brano said:

Yet your own comment mocks his post
I really don't understand who this can benefit

 

I thought describing something as "the worst thing imaginable" was a rather good example of a put down? I don't think there was any bad intention, but it was rather clumsy.

 

I tried to draw attention to that, with an attempt at humour, yes.

[sabiji]

 

 

 

Hello Brano, but I'm going to preach now.

 

 

 

We just had a discussion on the topic (roughly) “Is the hobby dead?”, which I dispute because I see many good approaches.

 

 

 

But there is undeniably a problem with young talent, whether in Japan or elsewhere.

 

 

 

It's important to break away from the Japanese ideal that the sensei (or the important collector) is the measure of all things. A good master trains students who will eventually be better than him.

 

Large gaps always arise when there is no one to follow in the footsteps of the good ones.

 

 

 

And that is really a problem.

 

 

 

And even though I expect a certain amount of enthusiasm from newcomers... if you, as “old hands,” discover someone who has the eye, the talent, and, of course, the virus, then please encourage them.

 

If they then smile (kindly) at your pieces, you've done everything right!

[sabiji]

 

 

Michael,

I deliberately used the example of the suriage Kanbun blade without papers. And it was meant to be a dig at what is generally thought about Shinto blades here in the forum.

 

Someone had recommended that I take this particular sword with me because I didn't know any better – and he was right.

 

And even though it was “only” Shinto and even suriage, Micha Hagenbusch didn't tear it apart. Quite the contrary. The workmanship and quality were important to him. I thought that was easy to understand.

 

I still own the sword today. It is a Migi Mutsu Kaneyasu, in the Tegai style with some Kuichigai-ba, Uchinoke, and a pretty Kaen-Boshi.

 

Migi Mutsu, who actually worked until Enpo, is known for his textbook Kanbun Sugata. Little sori, a pronounced taper, and a relatively short tip in relation to the sakihaba.

In the original, the blade must have had a motokasane of at least 9 mm, but the Kanbun tapering makes such blades both robust and extremely maneuverable.

The koshirae is a toppei koshirae, which leads me to believe that the blade was shortened very late in its history and that the sword was still being carried by an officer in the early Meiji period, well into the 1870s.

 

At some point, I sent it to Japan for a Hozon. But it's simply not worth selling. Interest in the blade, although it's not bad, would be too low for a suriage Shinto. This is also due to the well-intentioned advice given here to the new collector.

[When Necessary]

Hoorah! I managed to tick all the bad boxes with this one!

 

Yahoo Auction ✔️

Cheap - $1,500 ✔️

Suriage✔️

Kanbun Shinto ✔️

Very shallow sori ✔️

Dodgy old green paper ✔️

 

And yet it just passed Tokubetsu Hozon. 🤔

[Rawa]

11 minutes ago, When Necessary said:

Hoorah! I managed to tick all the bad boxes with this one!

 

Yahoo Auction ✔️

Cheap - $1,500 ✔️

Suriage✔️

Kanbun Shinto ✔️

Very shallow sori ✔️

Dodgy old green paper ✔️

 

And yet it just passed Tokubetsu Hozon. 🤔

Congratulations! But it can't be submitted for juyo as being suriage right? And how much it was shortened?

[When Necessary]

14 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Congratulations! But it can't be submitted for juyo as being suriage right? And how much it was shortened?

Who even wants dumb old Juyo papers?

They don't have a cool photograph stuck on them.

[Scogg]

34 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Congratulations! But it can't be submitted for juyo as being suriage right? 

It could be submitted. It would be very unlikely to be awarded Juyo just because it's shinto and suriage. 

But suriage alone does not rule out the possibility of Juyo, and many suriage and osuriage blades achieve Juyo and beyond. I believe there is a shinto suriage katana that has achieved tokubetsu juyo from Nanki Shigekuni.

Never say never or always, and there are exceptions to many 'rules'. 
All the best,
-Sam

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Scogg said:

It could be submitted. It would be very unlikely to be awarded Juyo just because it's shinto and suriage. 

But suriage alone does not rule out the possibility of Juyo, and many suriage and osuriage blades achieve Juyo and beyond. I believe there is a shinto suriage katana that has achieved tokubetsu juyo from Nanki Shigekuni.

Never say never or always, and there are exceptions to many 'rules'. 
All the best,
-Sam

Just to clarify
No single one o-suriage blade younger than the Oei has passed Juyo
And it is generally difficult to obtain Juyo for Shinto or Shinshinto blade even if the blade is ubu and zaimei
Especially in today's times
Juyo means important

[Mikaveli]

1 hour ago, Scogg said:

It could be submitted. It would be very unlikely to be awarded Juyo just because it's shinto and suriage. 

But suriage alone does not rule out the possibility of Juyo, and many suriage and osuriage blades achieve Juyo and beyond. I believe there is a shinto suriage katana that has achieved tokubetsu juyo from Nanki Shigekuni.

Never say never or always, and there are exceptions to many 'rules'. 
All the best,
-Sam

 

One of the things I often hear, is that Juyo winning blades should be the best examples of a smith (so if two excellent blades by one smith are submitted, only one would win)?

 

That being the case, it's _usually_ possible to find ubu examples of prominent shinto smiths. Less so, the older the blade, for various reasons.

[Brano]

10 minutes ago, Mikaveli said:

 

One of the things I often hear, is that Juyo winning blades should be the best examples of a smith (so if two excellent blades by one smith are submitted, only one would win)?

 

That being the case, it's _usually_ possible to find ubu examples of prominent shinto smiths. Less so, the older the blade, for various reasons.

Not necessarily just one
In the last Tokubetsu Juyo session, only 21 blades passed
Of these, 3 were Norishige blades and what was even more surprising - 3 were Rin Tomomitsu blades

[Mikaveli]

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

Michael,

I deliberately used the example of the suriage Kanbun blade without papers. And it was meant to be a dig at what is generally thought about Shinto blades here in the forum.

 

Someone had recommended that I take this particular sword with me because I didn't know any better – and he was right.

 

And even though it was “only” Shinto and even suriage, Micha Hagenbusch didn't tear it apart. Quite the contrary. The workmanship and quality were important to him. I thought that was easy to understand.

 

I wasn't actually sure, the way it was written - but I didn't intend anything personal.

 

I understand the general sentiment you mention. I'm curious as to why there'd be embarrassment? Is there an expectation at those sessions that only certain blades are brought along?

 

Might have been lost in translation, but what did you mean by "wrong opinions"?

[Scogg]

1 hour ago, Brano said:

Just to clarify
No single one o-suriage blade younger than the Oei has passed Juyo
And it is generally difficult to obtain Juyo for Shinto or Shinshinto blade even if the blade is ubu and zaimei
Especially in today's times
Juyo means important

Thank you for the clarity/correction Brano. I've linked a short and interesting discussion on the subject for anyone interested.

Gakusee states at the end of the following thread: 

"For new swords, as is the case with Kotetsu, you really need zaimei ubu or at the very best undetectable little machiokuri but otherwise pristine nakago (and of course -sword). The Juyo criteria precisely state: “Blades made in the Muromachi period must be zaimei and blades from the Edo period and later, as a rule, must be ubu and zaimei to receive Juyo Token paper.”
 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38674-could-a-mumei-or-suriage-kotetsu-become-juyo/

 

 

[Gerry]

4 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Hoorah! I managed to tick all the bad boxes with this one!

 

Yahoo Auction ✔️

Cheap - $1,500 ✔️

Suriage✔️

Kanbun Shinto ✔️

Very shallow sori ✔️

Dodgy old green paper ✔️

 

And yet it just passed Tokubetsu Hozon. 🤔

Congrats on finding a diamond in the rough on Yahoo Auctions Japan! This goes against the general consensus that all dealers on Yahoo Auctions Japan sell dubious swords.

 

This particular dealer that you bought your sword from is very prolific in sales, and it'll be curious to know why he/she didn't send the blades for updated origami.

[Hokke]

16 minutes ago, Gerry said:

This particular dealer that you bought your sword from is very prolific in sales, and it'll be curious to know why he/she didn't send the blades for updated origami.

Good question, perhaps it was a simple matter of volume. Or maybe because someone told him kanbun shinto, suriage blades with shallow sori were "paperweights".

[Jussi Ekholm]

The discussion is good and there are several good views.

 

There is nothing really wrong in suriage Shintō swords. However I think you must understand how much value you will put on the item. For some smiths you can find hundreds of signed blades and suriage blades are unfortunately not on top of the list. Then you need to weigh long swords, short swords, possible polearms etc. It is actually quite confusing for people starting out.

 

I am fairly long time member of NBTHK but my interests in swords do not really align with the interests of the organization. I like stuff that they don't appreciate that much and for me it is ok. I know what I like and to me it feels good but I wouldn't recommend going so far out of the "norm" for anyone. I do think the traditional sword appreciation is bit hierachical you are supposed to like certain things because it is traditionally accepted. I think the "mainstream" collecting is safest and in general the best option.

 

Also I feel that when the talking goes to Jūyō swords and what is acceptable and not, then it gets to actually bit advanced stuff and I think new collectors maybe shouldn't be too stressed about that stuff in the beginning. Jūyō stuff is actually very complicated in my opinion and I believe I am not the only one. Sometimes it is very puzzling.

 

For example in the session with 3 Tomomitsu passes at Tokubetsu Jūyō, one of them was historical Masamune of Yasukuni jinja. Now NBTHK attributed the sword as Tomomitsu and it went through their whole system and finally at the top TJ. Last 2 years it was not on display at Yasukuni jinja because it was in the NBTHK process but I finally got to see it this summer. Yasukuni jinja displays it as Masamune as it has historically been, I feel they disregard NBTHK opinion on this. Now is it Masamune or Tomomitsu I cannot say but I feel in overall quality the sword is not super nice, however it has very large historical value.

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, Mikaveli said:

 

One of the things I often hear, is that Juyo winning blades should be the best examples of a smith (so if two excellent blades by one smith are submitted, only one would win)?

Its more like if there is a type the smith is particularly known for, than this type will have a chance at Juyo, and others might not.

For example, koto Tsunahiro benefits greatly from having a horimono. 

 

Going back to the topic once I've shown my zaimei nidai Tsunahiro to a good collector, who responded

"why did you buy it? Tsunahiro without horimono will never be Juyo".

[When Necessary]

41 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Going back to the topic once I've shown my zaimei nidai Tsunahiro to a good collector, who responded

"why did you buy it? Tsunahiro without horimono will never be Juyo".

Ah, and there's the rub.
I honestly do not care if none of my swords will ever attain Juyo. I do not aspire to Juyo.

 

If I get a dog, it's because I love the dog, whether mongrel or pedigree - not because I want it to win Crufts.

As the late Darcy was so fond of pointing out, Hozon and Tokuho are merely confirmations (to continue my canine analogy, let's say they are like a vet's standard and deluxe medical checkup of your mutt) but Juyo and Tokuju are competitions.

I don't do competitions.

[Rayhan]

9 hours ago, Scogg said:

It could be submitted. It would be very unlikely to be awarded Juyo just because it's shinto and suriage. 

But suriage alone does not rule out the possibility of Juyo, and many suriage and osuriage blades achieve Juyo and beyond. I believe there is a shinto suriage katana that has achieved tokubetsu juyo from Nanki Shigekuni.

Never say never or always, and there are exceptions to many 'rules'. 
All the best,
-Sam

We must be very careful with spreading information that is definitely not true in the context of what can pass Juyo, we don't want people submitting things and being charged fees for failures. 

[Rayhan]

10 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Hoorah! I managed to tick all the bad boxes with this one!

 

Yahoo Auction ✔️

Cheap - $1,500 ✔️

Suriage✔️

Kanbun Shinto ✔️

Very shallow sori ✔️

Dodgy old green paper ✔️

 

And yet it just passed Tokubetsu Hozon. 🤔

I cannot thank you enough! On behalf of the community new and old I say a huge thanks for removing this paperweight from the market and making sure no new collectors fall victim to the temptation. You've done everyone a huge favour,  Arigato. 

[Mushin]

3 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Ah, and there's the rub.
I honestly do not care if none of my swords will ever attain Juyo. I do not aspire to Juyo.

I am very familiar with the mindset that if a sword isn’t Juyo, why bother—but I don’t share it.

 

I recently sought the opinion of a good friend for his thoughts about a blade I was debating getting, and he asked me if I’d be content owning a sword that would never go Juyo. For me, the answer is yes, but not because I don’t care or don’t aspire to them.

 

Truth is, I do own a few Juyo, and one is my all-time favorite. But right on its heels it is a Hozen token blade I bought for $2,000. If my house were on fire, those are the two I’d grab. And if I only managed to reach the Hozon, I’d be ok with that. The Hozon will likely never be Juyo, and that’s fine—papers don’t change what a sword is or why I like it. Darcy even noted this fact. (See his “ladder fallacy” posts.) Papers don’t change a blade.

 

What matters to me is the artistry, the history, the workmanship, and the smith—not what certificate it might carry. But that said, it’s important to recognize that Juyo blades are special. Whatever you feel about Juyo swords there is something everybody should keep in mind about them: they serve as recorded works of art and as such are available to everybody to study and learn from. That’s a real contribution to posterity. But dismissing everything else as “lesser,” or sneering at Juyo as toys for rich collectors, are just opposite sides of the same bad coin. I know some collectors who (wrongly) dismiss Juyo blades as playthings of spoiled rich collectors. They disparage Juyo blades and those who like them because they see them and those who want them as elitist. This too is BS and it needs to stop.

 

In the end, this is a hobby we should celebrate, not fight over. Love what you love, share what excites you, and respect that others might feel differently. Seriously, people. This is a cool hobby. Remember that always.

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Mushin said:

I am very familiar with the mindset that if a sword isn’t Juyo, why bother—but I don’t share it.

 

But dismissing everything else as “lesser,” or sneering at Juyo as toys for rich collectors, are just opposite sides of the same bad coin. I know some collectors who (wrongly) dismiss Juyo blades as playthings of spoiled rich collectors. They disparage Juyo blades and those who like them because they see them and those who want them as elitist. This too is BS and it needs to stop.

With all due respect Bobby, you are correct until you actually encounter someone from either camp. I have not a seen a single occurrence of someone here "sneering at Juyo as toys for rich collectors". However, there are bold occurrences of "dismisses the lesser". This is done quite openly and proudly. At that point, all bets are off and its no longer BS. Yes, yes, we "should celebrate" nihonto and "not fight", and for the most part I think this is the case. All the more reason to call out a liar in truths clothing. Cancer has to be identified, before being treated. 

[Rayhan]

24 minutes ago, Hokke said:

With all due respect Bobby, you are correct until you actually encounter someone from either camp. I have not a seen a single occurrence of someone here "sneering at Juyo as toys for rich collectors". However, there are bold occurrences of "dismisses the lesser". This is done quite openly and proudly. At that point, all bets are off and its no longer BS. Yes, yes, we "should celebrate" nihonto and "not fight", and for the most part I think this is the case. All the more reason to call out a liar in truths clothing. Cancer has to be identified, before being treated. 

Drama queen 

[When Necessary]

4 hours ago, Rayhan said:

I cannot thank you enough! On behalf of the community new and old I say a huge thanks for removing this paperweight from the market and making sure no new collectors fall victim to the temptation. You've done everyone a huge favour,  Arigato. 

 

So let's analyse exactly what you've really just said in that comment.

You are stating, quite clearly, that the NBTHK (the most respected organisation in sword appraisal) - when giving the status of Tokubetsu Hozon (extraordinarily worthy of preservation) to a sword, which through being suriage will be unable to proceed to the next level of Juyo - are vis-à-vis declaring that item to be a "paperweight" and thus not worthy of collecting at all.

Ergo, anything lesser than Juyo are inherently inferior - whatever the NBTHK judges them to be or whatever their owner feels them to be.

 

You really are a self-fullfilling prophecy, aren't you Rayban old son?

Sneering and belittling and undoing whatever good you hoped to achieve by starting this thread. You just can't help yourself.

It's rather sad really.

[Matsunoki]

This thread has been heavily “cleaned up” by admin thus removing just about all of the malicious, spiteful, sneering, insulting and derogatory comments from @rayhan but even after that I wonder if any newbies reading a thread that was intended to guide them will actually think “yeah, I really want to get into all this”.

I also wonder why many of the “seniors” on this excellent Forum are not “calling out” this ridiculously elitist behaviour.…

further insults awaited

 

[Rayhan]

8 hours ago, When Necessary said:

 

So let's analyse exactly what you've really just said in that comment.

You are stating, quite clearly, that the NBTHK (the most respected organisation in sword appraisal) - when giving the status of Tokubetsu Hozon (extraordinarily worthy of preservation) to a sword, which through being suriage will be unable to proceed to the next level of Juyo - are vis-à-vis declaring that item to be a "paperweight" and thus not worthy of collecting at all.

Ergo, anything lesser than Juyo are inherently inferior - whatever the NBTHK judges them to be or whatever their owner feels them to be.

 

You really are a self-fullfilling prophecy, aren't you Rayban old son?

Sneering and belittling and undoing whatever good you hoped to achieve by starting this thread. You just can't help yourself.

It's rather sad really.

No no, let's not start interpreting my statement incorrectly. 

 

What i said is that particular sword is a paperweight, your sword. Not every sword below Juyo. Realistically a sword must go Hozon, to Tokubetsu Hozon before going Juyo so your statements are nonsensical. Its just the particular sword that you now own (hopefully for a very long time). Keep it safely off the market please. 

[When Necessary]

20 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

No no, let's not start interpreting my statement incorrectly. 

 

What i said is that particular sword is a paperweight, your sword. Not every sword below Juyo. Realistically a sword must go Hozon, to Tokubetsu Hozon before going Juyo so your statements are nonsensical. Its just the particular sword that you now own (hopefully for a very long time). Keep it safely off the market please. 

You should be in standup Rayban - you crack me up, you really do! 😂