Gunto Dull Fake?

[Brian]

38 minutes ago, Anto said:

I’m not opposed to having it polished just only if it makes sense. ...

Bear in mind a proper polish is $150+ PER INCH.
You need to decide if you are a militaria collector or a Japanese sword collector. Financially, you would need to appreciate the craft to spend money like that, as you can't do it just for the financial impact.

[When Necessary]

One last thought Cole. If you want to see how much blade edge has been lost by blunting it, unscrew the brass fitting at the mouth of the saya (scabbard). Inside there will be a wood liner which should split into two halves pretty easily (it's only held together by 85 year old rice paste).

Then, position the blade against the inside of one half of the liner; if the edge or point section has lost a lot of metal, you'll see it easily.

[Anto]

11 minutes ago, When Necessary said:

One last thought Cole. If you want to see how much blade edge has been lost by blunting it, unscrew the brass fitting at the mouth of the saya (scabbard). Inside there will be a wood liner which should split into two halves pretty easily (it's only held together by 85 year old rice paste).

Then, position the blade against the inside of one half of the liner; if the edge or point section has lost a lot of metal, you'll see it easily.

 

36 minutes ago, Brian said:

Bear in mind a proper polish is $150+ PER INCH.
You need to decide if you are a militaria collector or a Japanese sword collector. Financially, you would need to appreciate the craft to spend money like that, as you can't do it just for the financial impact.

I’ll try that when I get back home later today if I can figure out how to take it off.

 

ive looked at some prices, my friend used to be into this stuff years ago so he’s trying to steer me in the right direction.  If I makes sense to fix it then I can surely try.

[ROKUJURO]

There is also the possibility that a former owner of the sword used it in IAIDO and blunted it for more safety.

If it were mine, I would carefully consider the loss of steel necessary for a new polish. First step is always to know what you have. Making it sharp (what for?) is the very last step, and it will not improve the blade.

Just my two YEN.

[sabiji]

Interesting!

 

I can't promise whether it's a similar situation. But I had a Josun-length tanto, wide and strong and unfortunately unsigned, which was ubu-ba along the entire length of the blade. The edge was certainly 1 millimeter thick.

I'm still not sure whether the piece was still Shinshinto or much younger.

Since I could not really assign the dagger stylistically to a school of late Shinshinto, I never got rid of the suspicion that it is a work of the early Showa period.

The hada is a very dense ko-itame, and the hada is a suguha with ko-choji, ashi and ko-ashi in nioi-deki.

The tanto was mounted in a very simple shirasaya and I am sure that the dagger was never sharp, but was deliberately left blunt or ubu-ba.

Why? I do not know. But a very experienced friend said that the material thickness on the cutting edge would be an advantage if it was hardened again (at the customer's request?).

 

 

[Lareon]

4 hours ago, Anto said:

I’m not opposed to having it polished just only if it makes sense. In a way I wanted something that was interesting like this but just didn’t expect something like this, guess it’s what I get for being un-educated on the subject. He(the guy I purchased it from)has a couple other signed swords and while being in better condition(sharp), the other one I was looking at had a ripped handle wrapping? And he was asking much more for that, about 3-5k if I remember correctly.

edit: I should also mention he and I had no idea this had been signed, my friend used to collect stuff so he suggested to look at it so if it was. Explains the good price because he thought it was just a normal machine made one.

Apologies if you already know but when we talk about polish, we mean professionally done by an expert in polishing Japanese swords.
Just in case there's any confusion.

[Anto]

19 minutes ago, Lareon said:

Apologies if you already know but when we talk about polish, we mean professionally done by an expert in polishing Japanese swords.
Just in case there's any confusion.

I understand both terms can be used interchangeably. I would never try to sharpen something like this myself.

[Scogg]

You've got an interesting item, no doubt. 

As Brian and others have mentioned, it will be expensive to restore properly. 

Lets break it down:
Sword purchase = $1000 
+
Polish = $150 x ~27 inches = $4050
+
Shirasaya = lets just say ~$750

Total approximate investment = ~$5,800 and a considerable amount of time. 

BUT for a very beautiful, complete, and desirable WW2 katana.  
It will boil down to what you're willing to invest.
Best of luck,
-Sam

Edit: There's a chance that a flaw is hiding beneath its condition that could devalue the item. Unlikely in your case, in my opinion; But my point is that a restoration is not entirely without risk.

Edited July 16 by Scogg
Risk

[Anto]

23 minutes ago, Scogg said:

You've got an interesting item, no doubt. 

As Brian and others have mentioned, it will be expensive to restore properly. 

Lets break it down:
Sword purchase = $1000 
+
Polish = $150 x ~27 inches = $4050
+
Shirasaya = lets just say ~$750

Total approximate investment = ~$5,800 and a considerable amount of time. 

BUT for a very beautiful, complete, and desirable WW2 katana.  
It will boil down to what you're willing to invest.
Best of luck,
-Sam

I would be willing to invest it but I don’t know where I would go. As i understand it takes years to get it done but that’s fine with me.

[Lareon]

I would definitely be interested to see how far into the hamon the edge removal has gone. It can be really tricky to photo especially out of polish, if you can catch the hamon in a photo would be good. the right angle and either good sunlight or a light from the back edge of the sword can pick it up.

might not be possible to see but i've managed to pull the hamon out of some really poor conditioned swords 

I cant imagine it's too far to make it a problem though based on your photos, boshi may be different
 

4 minutes ago, Anto said:

I would be willing to invest it but I don’t know where I would go. As i understand it takes years to get it done but that’s fine with me.

 

[Scogg]

Just now, Anto said:

I would be willing to invest it but I don’t know where I would go. As i understand it takes years to get it done but that’s fine with me.

I always love hearing that someone want's to save a piece of history!

So, there's a few routes you could take, but the first step I would recommend is looking at this website's "restoration" list.

At the top of the page click the pulldown menu named "Nihonto Info" then "links" then "restoration".
I'd recommend doing a good bit of research into each individual before contacting any of them, as they are often very busy. 

Others will hopefully add their own input on restoration,
Best of luck,

-Sam

[Lareon]

Here is a Hidekage blade i have in bad polish but it's possible to see the hamon still, see if you can get something along the same lines

[Anto]

25 minutes ago, Lareon said:

Here is a Hidekage blade i have in bad polish but it's possible to see the hamon still, see if you can get something along the same lines

I’ll try to as soon as I get home, my friend mentioned he thought he could see one but idk we will see

[Anto]

6 hours ago, Lareon said:

Here is a Hidekage blade i have in bad polish but it's possible to see the hamon still, see if you can get something along the same lines

Here’s what I got hopefully these are good enough, I wasn’t able to take the scabbard apart.

[Pav]

Mine shin gunto has got the same habaki

[When Necessary]

@Anto

Hi Cole,

To dismantle the scabbard, you need to unscrew two, very small brass screws in the brass fitting at the scabbard mouth.

I've enlarged your photo to show you the screw head on one side.

You will then be able to pull out the wooden liner and separate the two halves.

 

Good luck!

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's a good idea to use some penetrating oil first in these, don't try and force them as they will strip in a heartbeat. Checking under the Habaki would likely give you just as good idea on how much metal has been removed. 

[When Necessary]

All good advice there, but comparing it with the inner wood liner would tell you if the kissaki (pointed end) has been re-shaped or shortened (the biggest worry as far as I would be concerned).

[Anto]

13 hours ago, When Necessary said:

All good advice there, but comparing it with the inner wood liner would tell you if the kissaki (pointed end) has been re-shaped or shortened (the biggest worry as far as I would be concerned).

So I got the end of the scabbard off and the wood liner moved about an inch and will not move any further, possibly due to it being dented? 

[Conway S]

Hi Cole, 

 

I wouldn’t worry about fidgeting with the scabbard any more. John’s suggestion above is safer than risking damage to the wood liner. If you want a true opinion on your sword you should try to connect with an expert in your area or attend one of the Japanese sword shows in the US (Vegas, Orlando, Chicago, SF), where you can have it assessed in-person. 

[Anto]

 

35 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Hi Cole, 

 

I wouldn’t worry about fidgeting with the scabbard any more. John’s suggestion above is safer than risking damage to the wood liner. If you want a true opinion on your sword you should try to connect with an expert in your area or attend one of the Japanese sword shows in the US (Vegas, Orlando, Chicago, SF), where you can have it assessed in-person. 

I don’t think there is an expert in my area unfortunately but I will try to do some research. Thank you guys for all the suggestions and help.