Which would you get? Mei or Mumei

[RichardY]

I have the opportunity to select between 2 blades both excellent conditions with NTBHK tokubetsu hozon.

 

1. Signed SUKEWADA dated 1572 nakago ubu 

 

2. Mumei nambokucho period with a shortened blade

 

Both are about 75cm blade length and both are the same cost surprisingly. 

 

Based on this and also based on my words that both swords are excellent condition.. Which would you get and why? 

 

Thanks for any help to solve my dilemma

 

 

[Nicholas]

Who is the mumei Nambokucho attributed to?

[Ray Singer]

The Sukesada could easily be worth far more than a Nanbokucho blade, and the opposite could also easily be true. Is the Sukesada a kazuuchimono or a blade with zokumei and special order inscription? Far more information here is needed to give feedback. Both being Tokubetsu Hozon does not provide equivalency between the two swords. The Nanbokucho blade might, for example, have only been taken up to Hozon but be an exceedingly good tokuju candidate. Please share more details with us, and we can provide feedback (and the feedback you receive between a zaimei Sukesada and mumei Nanbokucho blade might also be influenced by individual preferences).   

[Jacques]

Quote

Is the Sukesada a kazuuchimono

With a tokubetsu hozon, i doubt it can be a kazu uchimono. In any case, you can't judge the real quality of a sword without having some knowledge of it, and without having it in your hand...

[Rivkin]

As formulated the problem suggests that the same store has a somewhat generic sue Bizen blade (i.e. not first tier attribution) and long, perfect condition Nambokucho blade... at the same price.

This leaves very few options for what Nambokucho attribution is.

Probably Mihara or something similar.

[Bugyotsuji]

Which one do you like, and why?

[klee]

I am biased bc I am a Sue Bizen collector. 

 

I am however not a big fan of Sukesada but I would still pick that over the mumei / suriage / osuriage blade.

 

The more I studied and collected, the more and more mumei blades bothered me. The lack of certainty and it being a greatly altered version of the original work is something I cant look past for my taste

[Bugyotsuji]

Richard, you spelt/spelled 'Sukesada' wrong. Was that a slip of the keyboard, or are you totally new to Nihonto?

 

In the meantime, 75 cm is a relatively long blade. Will you be OK with shipping?

 

Also, are they both in shirasaya or does either of them have full koshirae available?

 

Ultimately, it will be a question of how you feel as you gaze at the blade. Which one might you get tired of, and which one bears looking at repeatedly with pleasure and satisfaction?

[Bugyotsuji]

(Kevin, apologies, I was replying to the thread starter.)

[RichardY]

@Bugyotsuji misspelled and yes still new. My agreement with the seller is I have to hand carry it back lol. Both comes with koshirae. I'll attach the papers shortly please do correct me if at any time I'm wrong

 

@Ray Singer there is a post somewhere about sukehada and the inscriptions .. so this one only name and date .. No commissioned by.

 

I prefer the mumei because of the hamon whereas the sukehada hamon is suguha. I think I have a very good picture of the mumei but not the sukehada blade, only the inscriptions on the tang

 

1st 2 pictures are the mumei blades followed by the paper.

 

 

[RichardY]

This is the sukehada blade. Sorry for multiple posts I'm limited in size of attached files

[Ray Singer]

The osuriage blade is attributed to den Rai Kunizane. A famous smith from late Kamakura into Nanbokucho who studied under the Saijo smith Rai Kunitoshi. 

 

The Sukesada is signed Bizen no kuni Osafune ju Sukesada. The date unclear due to the inscription being damaged by rust. If you have the entire paper, please share that one with us. There were many Sukesada in the lineage, with multiple individuals using the same name at the same time in parallel. Unless the papers provide more specificity, this would be a generic Sukesada working at the end of the muromachi period (one of many, with it being difficult to identify a specific individual). 

[Brian]

Sukesada, not Sukehada. There were a prolific number of smiths with that name, and tbh, the average ones aren't highly regarded. They made practical swords, more function than art.

[sabiji]

If the rest of DEN Kunizane is exactly the same as in the photos, my decision would be absolutely clear...

[RichardY]

2 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

The osuriage blade is attributed to den Rai Kunizane. A famous smith from late Kamakura into Nanbokucho who studied under the Saijo smith Rai Kunitoshi. 

 

The Sukesada is signed Bizen no kuni Osafune ju Sukesada. The date unclear due to the inscription being damaged by rust. If you have the entire paper, please share that one with us. There were many Sukesada in the lineage, with multiple individuals using the same name at the same time in parallel. Unless the papers provide more specificity, this would be a generic Sukesada working at the end of the muromachi period (one of many, with it being difficult to identify a specific individual). 

 

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Sukesada, not Sukehada. There were a prolific number of smiths with that name, and tbh, the average ones aren't highly regarded. They made practical swords, more function than art.

Lol my apologies.. I'm dyslexic  sorry

[nulldevice]

8 minutes ago, RichardY said:

 

Lol my apologies.. I'm dyslexic  sorry

The date is "A day in August of Tensho 2" which is 1574

[Bugyotsuji]

Dyslexic is fine. Thanks for letting us know!

Get both!!!

(That’s what they tell me.)

[Ooitame]

I agree with Thomas, the Den Rai sword looks quite nice!

[AlexiG]

One has to wonder why a Kamakura or Nanbokucho sword attributed to a well-known school will be priced the same as a late-Muromachi sword from a "generic" school. Is the den Kunizane sword tired, or is there something special about the Sukesada sword that has not been discussed yet? 

 

Alexi 

[Ooitame]

34 minutes ago, AlexiG said:

One has to wonder why a Kamakura or Nanbokucho sword attributed to a well-known school will be priced the same as a late-Muromachi sword from a "generic" school. Is the den Kunizane sword tired, or is there something special about the Sukesada sword that has not been discussed yet? 

 

Alexi 

Hi Alexi,

 

Since it is mumei, O suriage, and Den vs specific Smith would be my guess for price difference. Also depends on more pictures needed for possible ware, and if they come with Koshirae or Shirasaya and those conditions.

[RichardY]

6 hours ago, AlexiG said:

One has to wonder why a Kamakura or Nanbokucho sword attributed to a well-known school will be priced the same as a late-Muromachi sword from a "generic" school. Is the den Kunizane sword tired, or is there something special about the Sukesada sword that has not been discussed yet? 

 

Alexi 

 

Actually the Den Rai costs much more .. but I specifically gave a budget and the seller brought out 3 blades but found out the later price was much higher for the Den Rai, so he honoured my budget.. 2 said katanas and 1 more from even earlier Kamakura period mumei o suriage

 

6 hours ago, Ooitame said:

Hi Alexi,

 

Since it is mumei, O suriage, and Den vs specific Smith would be my guess for price difference. Also depends on more pictures needed for possible ware, and if they come with Koshirae or Shirasaya and those conditions.

 

That was my initial dilemma and doubt .. why would a Mumei be more expensive than a named sword (thanks to everyone here I now know the difference)

Sorry I do not have photos of the Koshirae but both blades come with koshirae and both look nice and fitting.

 

[Hoshi]

Quote

That was my initial dilemma and doubt .. why would a Mumei be more expensive than a named sword (thanks to everyone here I now know the difference)

 

It's not a named sword, this would be a sword with Go (Name). It's a zaimei Muromachi blade, from a group of makers that have been extremely prolific. These blades are commodities, with the exception of the rare custom ordered ones that generally (but not always) carry the full name of their maker (e.g., Yozozaemon, Gembei...). 

 

Nakajima Rai is a bucket attribution for blades that are "almost Rai Kunimitsu" but show less ji-nie, less nie-utsuri, more nagare...etc. It's second tier Rai. Even mumei Rai Kunimitsu is also often a problem, there are just too many of them, with a significant portion being rather uninspiring.  

 

That said, a length of 75 cm is rather rare, especially for the Muromachi Sukesada, which could point towards a custom order. 

 

Unfortunately, without detailed photos or videos, it's impossible to say more. 

 

Perhaps, the less risky strategy is to buy the cheaper 75cm Sukesada, study it and save money.